Redroom Studios said:
come on dude, my post was hardly hyperbolic... the fact that some of the crappy buildings on Bremner will be hidden by other crappy buildings on Bremner doesnt really refute my argument. It's my opinion that I dont like this new "masterplanned neighbourhood" that is filled with very little variety. If it's not yours thats fine. Enjoy all the new construction...
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I couldn't agree more. The skyline from the south once had a gorgeous and notable view that included the TD Centre and the Royal York etc. Now? A hastily and thoughtlessly assembled jumble of the mundane with each new one pretty much indistinguishable from the other in blandness. I'm not suggesting that nothing should have been built here or that the city should have demanded icons. On the contrary, the site was spectacular and all that was needed was good design and good planning. I guess some here are just happy to fill in open spaces and happy to have tall buildings. Makes 'em feel all New Yorky when they walk around perhaps... not that anyone really walks around in 'Southcore' (puke) do they?
 
Ramako said:
Personally I wouldn't mind if PoMo made a comeback. That era produced two of my favourite towers, which happen to not be all glass; Scotia Plaza and Canada Trust Tower.
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Ha ha. You know, as I get older, I'm starting to like PoMo too. I think it might have to do with the fact that PoMo towers always stood out, whether it was due to their irregular massing or their colour (ie. using a surface material that was not just glass). Of course, if our skyline was nothing but a collection of PoMo towers all this uniqueness would just dissolve into noise, but since we seem to be heading in the opposite direction - toward Vancouverizing our skyline - some PoMo spires or notches would surely add some character.
 
Hipster Duck said:
Ha ha. You know, as I get older, I'm starting to like PoMo too. I think it might have to do with the fact that PoMo towers always stood out, whether it was due to their irregular massing or their colour (ie. using a surface material that was not just glass).
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I have never particularly disliked Post-Modernism, and I am sure that others would say the same thing. Some examples of it have been hideous, to be sure, but other examples (such as Royal Bank Plaza and Scotia Plaza) have been as good as anything from any other movement. The same could be said about any other movement -- some examples are great, some are terrible and most are in between. However, over the past decade it has been fashionable to make disparaging remarks about it, as if it were the Worst Architectural Movement Ever, and that is simply wrong.
 
Redroom Studios said:
come on dude, my post was hardly hyperbolic... the fact that some of the crappy buildings on Bremner will be hidden by other crappy buildings on Bremner doesnt really refute my argument. It's my opinion that I dont like this new "masterplanned neighbourhood" that is filled with very little variety. If it's not yours thats fine. Enjoy all the new construction...
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I was not offering an opinion on the aesthetic merits of the buildings being built. You, however, said that Southcore was "runining the face" of Toronto. If the construction of four relatively minor buildings is "ruining" the face of the city, it was not much of a face to begin with. I don't mind people finding these buildings disagreeable - for me, they are at worst, just some high-end corporate facelessness that's pretty much indistiguishable from FCP and Royal Bank Plaza - but to say they are "ruining the face" of a city that is largely composed of boxes, particularly its "iconic" TD Centre, seems to be the definition of hyperbole.

Also, from the lake, the most prominent buildings are, and have been for years, the condos on Queens Quay. If anything, they have "ruined the face" of Toronto.
 
Man the lakefront looks WWAAAAAYYY better now, old pics from 95, even are depressing and empty, as for the Royal York, now a tourist can go find it,.... kinda like looking for the Waldorf Astoria, or the Plaza!
 
Is PoMo like disco? Never been dead, but just hibernating? Always lurking and sometimes sneaking into the mainstream? Has the time come when we don't have to duck when we share pro-PoMo sentiments?

With all these solid B, B-minus, or C+ towers along The Bremner (the area's new name, by the way...everything is classier with The in front), the least they could do is give the city some kind of variety. There is none. Maybe Ice will be a bit better. Multiple greyish blue boxes...how original. A metre of glass sticking beyond a box does not make it not a box. Commerce Court...now that's a box!

No, the area is not ugly (Infinity is, though), but it is a wasted opportunity. They'll probably shoot loads of international commercials and movies around The Bremner because it will double so effortlessly as any generic cityscape. Every city needs filler buildings to eat up space, but having a whole bunch of them in one place - in the last large central downtown site - was not a good idea.

The 'face' of Toronto from the Gardiner used to be awesome, with one, then two sports blobs separated by nothing, all in front of a very dramatic and surprisingly varied core of skyscrapers. It was like driving into the Rockies from Calgary, but with towers instead of mountains. That empty space along The Bremner...oh, the possibilities! Now, it's getting filled up with meh. Of everything that could possibly have happened to that land, "getting filled up" with a bunch of stuff is not the worst and is even a 'positive' outcome, but it's one of the most disappointing.
 
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I'm still holding out hope for a really original and creative design for the Ice office tower. It could really bring some spice to that neighbourhood.
 
Parkdalian said:
If the construction of four relatively minor buildings is "ruining" the face of the city, it was not much of a face to begin with. I don't mind people finding these buildings disagreeable - for me, they are at worst, just some high-end corporate facelessness that's pretty much indistiguishable from FCP and Royal Bank Plaza - but to say they are "ruining the face" of a city that is largely composed of boxes, particularly its "iconic" TD Centre, seems to be the definition of hyperbole.
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Hmm, some odd remarks here. First, Royal Bank Plaza is certainly not indistinguishable from Telus House, the blueish glass box rising next door to it, or the new snoozers planned further down Bremner. Indeed, despite its shortish stature, RBZ is, arguably, the CBD's most flamboyant tower..

Secondly, the new Southcore boxes aren't so much "ruining" the face of the CBD but blocking it entirely from view at certain choice angles. It doesn't matter how pretty or homely a face is, if something's standing in front of it, it won't be visible. And that's a shame with regards to the highly distinctive southern face of our CBD which consists of an assortment of high quality buildings from different architectural eras that span about 60 years. The incoming row of glass boxes offer nothing new to the mix and merely serve to dilute or obstruct one of the few aesthetically impressive vistas that the city had to offer. The CBD deserves something much better to complement it--something on the order of say.... Absolute. There, I said it.
 
Ramako said:
I'm still holding out hope for a really original and creative design for the Ice office tower. It could really bring some spice to that neighbourhood.
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Maybe - but you'll never see it amongst all the taller buildings.
 
Yeah, some 30 storey plain glass boxes are sooo high end and completely indistinguishable from a pair of skyscrapers with faceless gold windows or a thousand vertical feet of white marble.
 
Irishmonk said:
Hmm, some odd remarks here. First, Royal Bank Plaza is certainly not indistinguishable from Telus House, the blueish glass box rising next door to it, or the new snoozers planned further down Bremner. Indeed, despite its shortish stature, RBZ is, arguably, the CBD's most flamboyant tower..

Secondly, the new Southcore boxes aren't so much "ruining" the face of the CBD but blocking it entirely from view at certain choice angles. It doesn't matter how pretty or homely a face is, if something's standing in front of it, it won't be visible. And that's a shame with regards to the highly distinctive southern face of our CBD which consists of an assortment of high quality buildings from different architectural eras that span about 60 years. The incoming row of glass boxes offer nothing new to the mix and merely serve to dilute or obstruct one of the few aesthetically impressive vistas that the city had to offer. The CBD deserves something much better to complement it--something on the order of say.... Absolute. There, I said it.
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I didn't say the buildings were "runing the face" - I was quoting someone else - I was pointing out that from most perspectives they are a) invisible and b) when they are visible, they look pretty much like the rest of the skyline. My point is that there is a huge line being drawn between Southcore and the old Central Business District when there really aint much objective difference. It's all pretty much boxes. The "flamboyance" of the Royal Bank tower is flamboyant in the context of Toronto's skyline, but trust me - not a single Torontonian who is not an architecture fan (or who did not work there) would be able to identify it. As a kid, I certainly never noticed it. Getting worked up because one conservative piece of architecture is blocking our view of another piece of conservative architecture is pretty silly. Particularly since these are not arguments about the relative architectural merits of the building, but the style they are built in - hence the cries for a return to PoMo. I think it's also a fear of acknowledging this basic, underlying fact: Torontonians have been, and continue to be, very conservative people.
 
scarberiankhatru said:
Yeah, some 30 storey plain glass boxes are sooo high end and completely indistinguishable from a pair of skyscrapers with faceless gold windows or a thousand vertical feet of white marble.
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Can you think of materials more facelessly corporate than gold or marble, particularly when they are lathered on not in a form of a decoration, but as the composition of the outer windows and walls? In these contexts, they do not say "beauty"; all I hear is "MONEY." But then again, I think some people on this site get the cries of "MONEY" and "beauty" confused; hence all the concern about "Cheapening."
 
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Parkdalian said:
I didn't say the buildings were "runing the face" - I was quoting someone else - I was pointing out that from most perspectives they are a) invisible and b) when they are visible, they look pretty much like the rest of the skyline. My point is that there is a huge line being drawn between Southcore and the old Central Business District when there really aint much objective difference. It's all pretty much boxes. The "flamboyance" of the Royal Bank tower is flamboyant in the context of Toronto's skyline, but trust me - not a single Torontonian who is not an architecture fan (or who did not work there) would be able to identify it. As a kid, I certainly never noticed it. Getting worked up because one conservative piece of architecture is blocking our view of another piece of conservative architecture is pretty silly. Particularly since these are not arguments about the relative architectural merits of the building, but the style they are built in - hence the cries for a return to PoMo. I think it's also a fear of acknowledging this basic, underlying fact: Torontonians have been, and continue to be, very conservative people.
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The last line about Torontonians being, " very conservative people ", and this being an, " underlying fact ", is a crock. Try not to use such recieved ideas to support your argument.
 
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