[scarberiankhatru]

Phase One was always intended to head to Victoria Park. It's only due to lack of funds they stopped short and Don Mills did have that "Yorkdale-ish" gene-se-qua a suburban terminus needs.

But then wouldn't the Sheppard East LRT still be needed between Midland and Meadowvale? From Agincourt one's still about 20 mins away from Malvern/ Centennial College. The only on-Sheppard benefactors of the extension are essentially the business park and Agincourt. As for demand, at all hours of operation (even late evenings) BD is always moderate to densely packed between Coxwell-Keele. The contrast to 85/190 is that they operate in the path of a proposed subway line, so if demand is sparse now how promising will it be as a subway?

I think a west-east line along Eglinton would generate higher ridership due to closer proximity to the downtown and could service the STC via SRT@ Kennedy. More people use the Eglinton corridor today than Sheppard+SRT combined and I'm just saying but I am quite skeptical of a subway that's wholeheartedly reliant on condo-dwellers to form the bulk of ridership with proximity to the 401 and abundance of parking spaces to consider.

The only reason it would have stopped at VP in phase 1 is because Mel would have been able to serve more of North York that way, not because it's a better terminus (both Don Mills and VP are silly places to end a line when it should have gone east of there right off the bat).

LRT probably wouldn't be needed east of Midland, where Sheppard ridership drops off somewhere below 20,000, especially if they do extend the stupid RT. The Consumers area, Agincourt, and STC would all benefit the most from the extension, yes, but that's a lot of people. Everyone else would also benefit - even someone taking Sheppard from Malvern - since the trip between Agincourt and Don Mills would be so much faster. With the added subway length, you then start adding in some Finch and York Mills riders.

The subway lines are not densely packed off-peak, but that doesn't matter because they're designed to handle peak crowds.

85/190's combined ridership is almost as high as any other route in the city that's not "split" by a subway station or inflated by funnelling routes. If the parade of full buses leaving Don Mills station is sparse ridership, what's not sparse?

Eglinton would be a good spot for better transit, who's doubting that? But: of course Eglinton has more total riders...it's so much longer than the <8km between Fairview and STC. Eglinton East, however, benefits from so many routes that flow onto Eglinton to get to stations, seriously inflating "corridor" numbers.

Condo dwellers actually make up a minority of Sheppard riders right now. They'll be more important later after tens of thousands of residential units are built next to Sheppard stations, but even then, sketchy apartment towers, houses, bus connections, jobs at Consumers and STC, the two malls, and schools like York, UTSC, Seneca, and Centennial will be what forms the base of Sheppard's ridership, not existing or future condos...those are just the tax-generating bonus.

"A west-east line along Eglinton would generate higher ridership due to closer proximity to the downtown" makes absolutely no sense. Downtown already has a line in close proximity...the Bloor/Danforth line.

 

[Lone Primate]

both Don Mills and VP are silly places to end a line when it should have gone east of there right off the bat.

Wow, it doesn't matter how many times you say it around here, it never seems to sink in. One more try.

If your idea in building a subway is, at least in part, to get people off the highways and onto public transit, then having a terminus at the nexus of two 400-series highways just prior to the downtown-bound bottleneck is imminently sensible. It's precisely where you need it to be: far enough south that it can realistically serve other needs, but just far enough north that it doesn't negate its own usefulness by first requiring motorists to crawl through 15 minutes of 404-401-DVP tangle to access it. Yes, moving it further east is a good idea. But if your alternatives are all or nothing, sorry, this at least serves a purpose that "nothing" doesn't while you're waiting for "all".

 

[Edward Skira]

I'm still worried about what will happen to the Young subway line though. As is I can't see the subway running any faster than it is already during rush hour. With all the intensification by 2010 the Young line might was well become Finch > NYC > Shepperd > Bloor. Anything between Shepperd and Bloor might as well be dumped onto buses / LRT as your not going to be getting on any trains (think of the headaches Young/Bloor is now and start moving that north quite a few stations possibly to Eglington and that's if your lucky).

I got on the northbound platform at Queen Station yesterday at 5:30PM. The platform was packed. It took three trains before I was able to squeeze on. Something's going to have to be done here.

 

[interchange42]

This thread begs a legend for those following along right now:

gene-se-qua = je ne sais quoi
Eglington = Eglinton
Young = Yonge
Shepperd = Sheppard
DVP = future Veterans Memorial Parkway cave-in
$4B for 8 km of more Spadina subway = $2B* for 8.6 km of new Spadina subway

42

* in 2006 dollars

 

[DENTROBATE54]

"A west-east line along Eglinton would generate higher ridership due to closer proximity to the downtown" makes absolutely no sense. Downtown already has a line in close proximity...the Bloor/Danforth line.

I meant in contrast to Sheppard. Eglinton could serve as an alternative east-west route, taking some pressure off BD. It's pointless to travel north to head back south as anyone needing downtown and living south of York Mills/Ellesmere would not do that. Any time saved by using the Sheppard line is lost by the transfer, wait-time for and ride on YUS southbound. It also doesn't help that both Sheppard and BD would converge at STC, making the choice for downtown-bound riders all the simpler.

But if there's no better alternative than Don Mills-Scarborough Centre to focus the future of rapid transit expansion on, we may as well.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Perhaps someone south of York Mills could get downtown quicker using an Eglinton line rather than a Sheppard line, but so what? What if they're not going downtown?

Sheppard already has subway...acknowledging this is the first step towards enlightenment.

 

[Lone Primate]

I meant in contrast to Sheppard. Eglinton could serve as an alternative east-west route, taking some pressure off BD.

So does Sheppard. The difference is, it serves a purpose Eglinton simply can't, because of where it is and Sheppard is. You probably haven't seen what's on the 404 southbound on any weekday morning. I'm not kidding you; it's invariably bumper to bumper from the 401 to Steeles... sometimes up past Hwy 7. They're not doing it because they like it. They're doing it because there's no other viable alternative.

Someone south of York Mills has got a lot more options about getting to the subway or other TTC facilities than someone coming from further north... in some cases, a lot further north. They might not have Eglinton, but they've already got Yonge, they've got Bloor. Someone living at Major Mac trying to get to get to Queen and Bathurst can now get out of the car at Fairview, read a book, and keep "Metro" streets and the DVP from being congested. Isn't this part of what we're after? I only wish we could get more of them doing it.

 

[rpgr]

I got on the northbound platform at Queen Station yesterday at 5:30PM. The platform was packed. It took three trains before I was able to squeeze on. Something's going to have to be done here.

And this is the crux of the problem I'm talking about. There's just too much intensification coming from the North now that the current system isn't working anymore.

Prior to the Sheppard line who would have thought during peak times we would be completely taxing the system? Apparantly nobody that is in charge.

The province and the city will only tackle todays problem in about 3+ years later. By that time the problems we have now in terms of transit will be nothing compared. They are just thinking of treating symptoms and are not really the virus that is growing.

OK, I understand that budget is limited. I know we can't afford to build subways or rails to every part of the city. I've suggested before that with our current limited budget we need to think about ways of maximizing what we have. In Toronto's case we need to make sure traffic would flow a bit more evenly during those "peak times". I still say Toronto and it's policies need to stop thinking about just the downtown core and start thinking about decentralization of the core.

The downtown core needs more residential while the outer parts need more commercial/offices. That way you can control the traffic and make sure that it will more evenly feed the roads/rails we have now. Do what it takes to get new businesses to go open offices (or for a few old ones to move) with the opposite flow of current traffic.

If the intensification that comes with the new subway line to York U is mostly offices and the government actually gives incentives for people to put up shop there (thereby leasening the need to go downtown) then there could be some relief.

If it's more condos then we will have a major problem unless for some miracle we have GO and the TTC partner up so that you can transfer between systems on a single fare / passcard. GO and it's tracks in my opinion is a wildcard. It's too bad that by the time the government realizes the upcoming problems it will be too late.


P.S. Thanks for all the spelling corrections.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

The crowding problems on the Yonge Subway aren't a new thing. The conditions today are very similar to those from the mid 80s when subway ridership was at the level it was today, and that is what spurred talk of the downtown relief line, the third platform at Bloor, etc. etc. to help alleviate the crowds... but then the 90s hit, ridership went down, and we're just now back to where we were before... but without talk of any of the relief measures...

Ohhh if the NDP stayed in government a few extra years back then...

 

[DENTROBATE54]

What if they're not going downtown?

Majority of inter-416 commuter flow is...
AM peak southbound into downtown
PM peak northbound into the suburbs. It's not rocket science !

Someone south of York Mills has got a lot more options about getting to the subway or other TTC facilities than someone coming from further north... in some cases, a lot further north. They might not have Eglinton, but they've already got Yonge, they've got Bloor. Someone living at Major Mac trying to get to get to Queen and Bathurst can now get out of the car at Fairview, read a book, and keep "Metro" streets and the DVP from being congested. Isn't this part of what we're after? I only wish we could get more of them doing it.

Someone at Major Mac could just use the GO network, why should Toronto worry about a couple 000 at most in exurbia when the 416 is lagging behind? YR/Mississauga/Brampton has a surpurlative network of local and express routes that actually show up on time (sometimes ahead of time) and always has a seat. Implementation of bus-only lanes along major highways would be of far better use to 905ers than taking at least an hour's drive/ride to the Sheppard Line only to incur 20-something subway stops and interchange one or twice again to reach the CBD.

If the Sheppard Line veered up into Markham, maybe, MAYBE then the line would reach capacity but as is the catchment for ridership base is limited by the Finch hydro corridor to the north and the 401 to the south. Downtown's influence meanwhile spreads as far west as Dufferin, east as the Beaches and north pass St Clair, growth occuring in spite of a subway, not because of one.

 

[rpgr]

Majority of inter-416 commuter flow is...
AM peak southbound into downtown
PM peak northbound into the suburbs. It's not rocket science !



Someone at Major Mac could just use the GO network, why should Toronto worry about a couple 000 at most in exurbia when the 416 is lagging behind? YR/Mississauga/Brampton has a surpurlative network of local and express routes that actually show up on time (sometimes ahead of time) and always has a seat. Implementation of bus-only lanes along major highways would be of far better use to 905ers than taking at least an hour's drive/ride to the Sheppard Line only to incur 20-something subway stops and interchange one or twice again to reach the CBD.

If the Sheppard Line veered up into Markham, maybe, MAYBE then the line would reach capacity but as is the catchment for ridership base is limited by the Finch hydro corridor to the north and the 401 to the south. Downtown's influence meanwhile spreads as far west as Dufferin, east as the Beaches and north pass St Clair, growth occuring in spite of a subway, not because of one.

Still not making sense. GO network at downtown only has union station. It doesn't reach into all nooks and crannies. Working downtown isn't just relagated to just Bay street.

People don't usually like paying double fare just to get somewhere. Your turning a 2.ish ride into well over 6.00. Remember to double that for the ride home.


People move out to the burbs because they want to have families and live in affordable housing.

A lot of travellers such as students can't afford the luxery of GO to Union and then TTC to campus. Students don't really get to choose where they live so also not pratical from that standpoint.

Your looking at things with extreme tunnelvision here (pun intended). There is no reason for an Eglinton subway line over more northern lines. Between Eglinton and Bloor/Danforth line is 1 kinda stop which isn't that far (Davisville) and from there to Bloor are just non-stops.

As I said before, Sheppard/Yonge even before the subway extension was busier than Eglinton. Eglinton users have a choice of the North/South or East/West lines. Eglinton users are much closer to the core than those up North. That's the key here that everyone else is saying. The greatest good for the greatest number. If we use that philosophy, the subway extension line needed to be either Sheppard or Finch.

You ever drove from Don Mills to Young? Before the subway that trip would take 40min-1 hour on either Finch or Sheppard during peak. Eglinton is nowhere near that bad at peak and as Scaborouhaku has always maintained, Scarborough has always had the density regardless of Sheppard subway station. A Sheppard or Finch line subway station would serve a much bigger area in terms of physical location as well.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

If the Sheppard Line veered up into Markham, maybe, MAYBE then the line would reach capacity but as is the catchment for ridership base is limited by the Finch hydro corridor to the north and the 401 to the south. Downtown's influence meanwhile spreads as far west as Dufferin, east as the Beaches and north pass St Clair, growth occuring in spite of a subway, not because of one.

Again, Sheppard already has a subway...acknowledging this is the first step towards enlightenment. It is not and should not be at capacity because if it was, it would not function. Why do people only support subways if they won't work properly?

Like it or not, there's hundreds of thousands of people that take the TTC every day but go nowhere near downtown. Many of them ride on overcrowded routes on congested streets. Shockingly, their lives are not confined to transit zones and some of them actually cross Yonge or the 401!

Downtown's "influence" that you mention is conveniently located along existing subway lines. What does that have to do with extending Sheppard, or Spadina, for that matter (other than justifying suburban lines based on principles of development like St. Clair )?

 

[unimaginative2]

If the Sheppard Line veered up into Markham, maybe, MAYBE then the line would reach capacity but as is the catchment for ridership base is limited by the Finch hydro corridor to the north and the 401 to the south. Downtown's influence meanwhile spreads as far west as Dufferin, east as the Beaches and north pass St Clair, growth occuring in spite of a subway, not because of one.

I'm not sure how the catchment area is limited by the Finch hydro corridor. People can and do ride north-south bus routes to the Sheppard station. Far more would ride routes further east, especially Warden, which would likely be a very busy stop. A large number of riders on Finch East, Steeles East, and routes in York Region will switch to nearby north-south routes down to the subway. Contrary to what Steve Munro believes, people will ride the subway over surface routes if at all possible.

As for downtown growth, it has happened overwhelmingly along subway routes. The vast majority of office and the majority of condo development are within walking distance of the subway. Once you get outside that area, downtown is mostly single-family homes and low-rise retail strips.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Some people will even switch from Steeles, especially if rocket routes are added on roads like Warden, Kennedy, etc., that blast people from Steeles to Finch to Sheppard in minutes. Add in some real GO service and transit usage will climb...that's the best way to reach precious "capacity," not by running lines to beyond the horizon.

Given better transit, there's no reason why overall transit usage couldn't double in a place like Agincourt - or anywhere else - but people still tend to use ridership numbers from the pre-improvement period.

 

[DENTROBATE54]

Still not making sense. GO network at downtown only has union station. It doesn't reach into all nooks and crannies. Working downtown isn't just relagated to just Bay street.

People don't usually like paying double fare just to get somewhere. Your turning a 2.ish ride into well over 6.00. Remember to double that for the ride home.

I can assure you friend, I'm not the one who's not making sense here. How does a Sheppard Line prevent people living at Major Mac from paying a double fare? YRT to Steeles, TTC Steeles to Sheppard to downtown fares fares and probably take well over 2 hours one-way. On the other hand GO local to Richmond Hill GO to Union, 45 mins to an hour tops. Return trip grants subsidized YRT fare of 50 cents. I'd pay a little extra to get to work/school on-time or even ahead of time (GO/YRT-VIVA/MT/BT renown for schedule accuracy while even subways are notoriously unreliable at times) than suffer an agonizing long, overcrowded, frequently-stopping bus/subway ride.

Eglintonians may have more options but that doesn't diminish the jarring potential of running a subway along it. It's the onle through east-west cross street in the city (even BD can't boast that), making where it can access unlimited. The airport, 4/27 corridor, Weston area, 3 subway interchanges, Don Mills area, GO connections, inter-regional BRT links and numerous shopping/residential centres are some of the many things it could access and while Sheppard also connects a quite few things, no one would disagree it's certainly not to Eglinton's magnitude.

Like it or not, there's hundreds of thousands of people that take the TTC every day but go nowhere near downtown. Many of them ride on overcrowded routes on congested streets. Shockingly, their lives are not confined to transit zones and some of them actually cross Yonge or the 401!

And yet most of these people, even along Eglinton, will have to make due with simply the Transit City LRTs. I'm all for completing the Sheppard Subway, someday, but the onus should be on fixing transit woes city-wide in the present.

The extension doesn't even have to be a 'subway' east of VP, which is what I keep alluding to. Everyone here admittingly agrees that density tapers off east of Consumers, only starting up a little bit around Allenford, and with properties a good distance aback from the street-curb coupled with lower density aesethetic, why does Sheppard's continuation need be underground?

There are numerous, cheaper options like elevated, at-grade or open-ditch. East of Agincourt GO the line could be completely surface til right before STC. My point is, I don't detest Sheppard so I'm enlightened in that sense, my issue is that you favor a subway above any other alternative when a Sheppard East LRT routed in the exact same manor as a subway would be just as useful, efficient and a whole lot cheaper.

BTW, rocket routes along VP and Warden are/were poor preforming and downtown's growth is more greatly influenced by proximity to streetcar lines rather than subway lines.