[north-of-anything]

When does TORONTO get the subway we deserve?

When you break up the yellowbelt.

 

[ARG1]

IMO Bridge station shouldn't be built as top priority because there isn't any intensification there yet. Not even a single building. All condos are at the north side of High tech. They should rough it in and build it when the redevelopment of langstaff land actually starts.

A station at Richmond hill centre (the bus terminal) is OK but I wish there will be some kinds of walkway extension to the condo cluster because the current Richmond hill centre is super super pedestrian unfriendly for any nearby resident who wants to walk to the bus terminal. We need to walk a super detour (cutting through home depot parking lot is not an option) and climb the stupid pedestrian bridge. So everyone drives even though it looks only walking distance on the map.

Bridge Station is where they're going to build the new bus terminal which would A) Better connect to a future 407 Transitway, B) Better serve Viva Orange and Purple and possibly even Viva Blue. As someone else mentioned the development on the south side is about to start, and we must look at this as "where will the area be in 10 years?", not "what do we have today, right now?", and in 10 years we should see a lot of condos either finished or almost finished. There is a reason why High Tech is now treated as the complementary station to just serve additional development.

 

[Sandpit]

I wonder if we will see a push from RH to extend the line to 16th Avenue in a decade given that it would be fairly affordable above grade and is already half-way there with the yard located north of High-Tech..

I bet this was one for the unstated reasons for this proposal, and will be used to get Richmond Hill council on board.

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

With a new station at Steeles, but none at Cummer/Drewry, the # 53 and 60 will terminate at Steeles and not serve Yonge St. That will meaningfully reduce the transit service in between. Not even talking about the new projects; the existing residents of those many highrises, who are used to decent transit service, will be very much out of luck. Maybe if you are located at Cummer, walking 500 m to the north entrance of Finch Stn is acceptable. But what if you are located half way between Cummer and Steeles. Either walk for up to 1 km, or walk for 500 m and then wait for # 42 / 125.

The only somewhat feasible alternative to the Cummer station, is if the TTC dramatically improves the branch of # 97 operating between Davisville and Steeles. That branch would need to run every 10 min or so; and I doubt it will.

If we're gonna talk Cummer, let's talk about this map because everyone is talking more about the intersection distances than the subway entrance distances; not the same thing. And the stuff you're talking about has been modelled in the Metrolinx Report.

What do all these concentric rings mean in practical terms?
A Cummer Station would save travel time for around 24% of the residents and jobs within its 800 metres. The other 76% would have walk-in access to either Finch or Steeles stations within 10 minutes. Some of these passengers would still experience travel time savings if they were located within a walk-in distance to the new Steeles station. Passengers accessing the subway by bus will also have the option to connect to the subway at other stations which would serve them better.

Acknowledging the reality - modelling is not an exact science and 800m is not "walkable" for every single human being - this is the hard math. More than 3/4 of people who would be able to walk to Cummer can just as easily go to Steeles or Finch.
Again, I'm not against a Cummer station at all but IF we're talking about which stations to cut and how to make that determination, that's a number that requires serious consideration.

 

[sunnyraytoronto]

Distance from proposed Cummer Station to existing Finch Station is 500m.
Distance from proposed Bridge Station (Hwy 407/7) to proposed High Tech Rd Station (terminus) is 400m,.... they're building 2 new stations in RichmondHill 400m from each other - go figure! Note: Both of these stations are on ground or above ground and thus significantly cheaper than the $400-$500million per underground station like Cummer, Clark & Royal Orchard Station

While TTC usually "want" a minimum of 1km between subway stations (we have that along Sheppard STUBway line and it's Bayview, Bessarion and Leslie Stations are amoungst top 11 least used TTC Subway Stations), there's also the question of Density and ridership volume! Look at North York Centre Station, it's the highest volume TTC Subway Station of all Stations without a connecting bus/streetcar route (beating many other stations with not only those connections but with bus terminals too - like Lawrence, Lawrence West, Eglinton West & Wellesley) - all of North York Centre Station customers are walk-ins,... mainly from surrounding high-density condos and offices!

The 15 busiest and least used TTC subway stations | Urbanized

Based on the TTC's latest statistics for annual ridership, Toronto's busiest subway stations rival the ridership of New York City's busiest stations.

dailyhive.com

https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/kizbfw

- All of the land along Yonge St south of Cummer/Drewry already have development applications in various stage of approval (Aoyuan's M2M redevelopment of Newtonbrook Plaza, Plaza's 5888 Yonge, Times Group 5800 Yonge - 10 towers in total) for height and density similar to those around North York Centre Station - these are all within the same North York Centre Secondary Plan area.
- North of Cummer/Drewry outside boundary of North York Centre Secondary Plan Area - Ghods' 5959 Yonge and YongWood's 5995 Yonge are going to OMB/LPAT to seek density 3 times greater than that being granted to the south within the North York Centre Secondary Plan Area. Add in Dialog 6080 Yonge 20-storey at 5.9FSI density & Sorbara 6150 Yonge 14-storey at 5.5FSI density

Thus, the condo-density/people are coming to Cummer Station,... with or without a Cummer Station - the question is how much? And it will be greater than the density and number of residents around North York Centre Station!

 

[TJ O'Pootertoot]

Thus, the condo-density/people are coming to Cummer Station,... with or without a Cummer Station - the question is how much? And it will be greater than the density and number of residents around North York Centre Station!

FWIW, the Metrolinx map I posted is based on 2041 modelling. But those maps you posted, those are cool maps.

 

[Johnny Au]

Distance from proposed Cummer Station to existing Finch Station is 500m.
Distance from proposed Bridge Station (Hwy 407/7) to proposed High Tech Rd Station (terminus) is 400m,.... they're building 2 new stations in RichmondHill 400m from each other - go figure! Note: Both of these stations are on ground or above ground and thus significantly cheaper than the $400-$500million per underground station like Cummer, Clark & Royal Orchard Station

While TTC usually "want" a minimum of 1km between subway stations (we have that along Sheppard STUBway line and it's Bayview, Bessarion and Leslie Stations are amoungst top 11 least used TTC Subway Stations), there's also the question of Density and ridership volume! Look at North York Centre Station, it's the highest volume TTC Subway Station of all Stations without a connecting bus/streetcar route (beating many other stations with not only those connections but with bus terminals too - like Lawrence, Lawrence West, Eglinton West & Wellesley) - all of North York Centre Station customers are walk-ins,... mainly from surrounding high-density condos and offices!

View attachment 306829

The 15 busiest and least used TTC subway stations | Urbanized

Based on the TTC's latest statistics for annual ridership, Toronto's busiest subway stations rival the ridership of New York City's busiest stations.

dailyhive.com

https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/kizbfw

- All of the land along Yonge St south of Cummer/Drewry already have development applications in various stage of approval (Aoyuan's M2M redevelopment of Newtonbrook Plaza, Plaza's 5888 Yonge, Times Group 5800 Yonge - 10 towers in total) for height and density similar to those around North York Centre Station - these are all within the same North York Centre Secondary Plan area.
- North of Cummer/Drewry outside boundary of North York Centre Secondary Plan Area - Ghods' 5959 Yonge and YongWood's 5995 Yonge are going to OMB/LPAT to seek density 3 times greater than that being granted to the south within the North York Centre Secondary Plan Area. Add in Dialog 6080 Yonge 20-storey at 5.9FSI density & Sorbara 6150 Yonge 14-storey at 5.5FSI density

Thus, the condo-density/people are coming to Cummer Station,... with or without a Cummer Station - the question is how much? And it will be greater than the density and number of residents around North York Centre Station!

What's more impressive is that North York Centre station, as an infill station, opened 13 years after both the then-Sheppard station and Finch station.

 

[11th]

Distance from proposed Cummer Station to existing Finch Station is 500m.
Distance from proposed Bridge Station (Hwy 407/7) to proposed High Tech Rd Station (terminus) is 400m,.... they're building 2 new stations in RichmondHill 400m from each other - go figure! Note: Both of these stations are on ground or above ground and thus significantly cheaper than the $400-$500million per underground station like Cummer, Clark & Royal Orchard Station

While TTC usually "want" a minimum of 1km between subway stations (we have that along Sheppard STUBway line and it's Bayview, Bessarion and Leslie Stations are amoungst top 11 least used TTC Subway Stations), there's also the question of Density and ridership volume! Look at North York Centre Station, it's the highest volume TTC Subway Station of all Stations without a connecting bus/streetcar route (beating many other stations with not only those connections but with bus terminals too - like Lawrence, Lawrence West, Eglinton West & Wellesley) - all of North York Centre Station customers are walk-ins,... mainly from surrounding high-density condos and offices!

View attachment 306829

The 15 busiest and least used TTC subway stations | Urbanized

Based on the TTC's latest statistics for annual ridership, Toronto's busiest subway stations rival the ridership of New York City's busiest stations.

dailyhive.com

https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/kizbfw

- All of the land along Yonge St south of Cummer/Drewry already have development applications in various stage of approval (Aoyuan's M2M redevelopment of Newtonbrook Plaza, Plaza's 5888 Yonge, Times Group 5800 Yonge - 10 towers in total) for height and density similar to those around North York Centre Station - these are all within the same North York Centre Secondary Plan area.
- North of Cummer/Drewry outside boundary of North York Centre Secondary Plan Area - Ghods' 5959 Yonge and YongWood's 5995 Yonge are going to OMB/LPAT to seek density 3 times greater than that being granted to the south within the North York Centre Secondary Plan Area. Add in Dialog 6080 Yonge 20-storey at 5.9FSI density & Sorbara 6150 Yonge 14-storey at 5.5FSI density

Thus, the condo-density/people are coming to Cummer Station,... with or without a Cummer Station - the question is how much? And it will be greater than the density and number of residents around North York Centre Station!

Interesting how Eglinton has lower average ridership than Sheppard-Yonge. It does have multitudes of bus routes and nearby density.

 

[11th]

IMO, the Royal Orchard station is a nice-to-have one. Can be skipped or postponed if the funding is an issue.

However, both Clarke and Cummer are essential. I don't even know how to choose one of the two if only one can be retained. Both are needed.

If they are using TBMs, won't they need a launch/extract site north of Finch anyways? One would think there'd be an opportunity to build the section from Finch to Cummer as cut-and-cover, and launch the TBMs from there.

 

[aquateam]

Interesting how Eglinton has lower average ridership than Sheppard-Yonge. It does have multitudes of bus routes and nearby density.

I wish they would separate out transfer traffic from other boardings/alightings at stations so we could get a better sense of local demand (walk-in traffic/surface routes.) Yonge-Sheppard has a lot of local demand and bus routes but adding in all of the people transferring from line 4 makes it hard to make an apples-to-apples comparison with other stations. Same thing applies to St. George, Kennedy, and Bloor-Yonge.

If they are using TBMs, won't they need a launch/extract site north of Finch anyways? One would think there'd be an opportunity to build the section from Finch to Cummer as cut-and-cover, and launch the TBMs from there.

For all the talk about being innovative with project delivery and cost savings to deliver more transit, I'm surprised Metrolinx hasn't listed the low-hanging fruit option of cut-and-cover construction along Yonge for the entire route. Alon Levy, who famously brought attention to the subway cost inflation problem, thinks that cut and cover is sorely under-used in most developed countries.

Yonge is exceptionally wide north of Finch and would lend itself well to cut-and-cover construction. The original section of line 1 was built with cut-and-cover from Union to Eglinton. And even though it would be disruptive in the short term, it is possible to temporarily deck over sections, and it would reduce the overall construction time. Stations would be shallower, reducing access time and making them significantly cheaper than the ~$500 million a pop currently budgeted. The only disadvantage I see is that it doesn't lend itself well to the curvy route outside the street grid to join the Richmond Hill GO line.

 

[Tuck]

I think Munro makes a good point that we are nearing a place in which neighborhood stations are simply too unaffordable to build. This is not the first time a subway plan has recommended bypassing most of the neighborhoods it was originally meant to serve to cut costs (Scarborough subway, though thankfully they reversed course on that, and the western segment of the Ontario line). It's a concerning trend in subway development in our region. Subways need to do more than just connect urban growth nodes and major transfer points.

 

[micheal_can]

For all the talk about being innovative with project delivery and cost savings to deliver more transit, I'm surprised Metrolinx hasn't listed the low-hanging fruit option of cut-and-cover construction along Yonge for the entire route. Alon Levy, who famously brought attention to the subway cost inflation problem, thinks that cut and cover is sorely under-used in most developed countries.

Yonge is exceptionally wide north of Finch and would lend itself well to cut-and-cover construction. The original section of line 1 was built with cut-and-cover from Union to Eglinton. And even though it would be disruptive in the short term, it is possible to temporarily deck over sections, and it would reduce the overall construction time. Stations would be shallower, reducing access time and making them significantly cheaper than the ~$500 million a pop currently budgeted. The only disadvantage I see is that it doesn't lend itself well to the curvy route outside the street grid to join the Richmond Hill GO line.

I'd guess moving all the existing buried infrastructure might be a problem.

 

[allengeorge]

For all the talk about being innovative with project delivery and cost savings to deliver more transit, I'm surprised Metrolinx hasn't listed the low-hanging fruit option of cut-and-cover construction along Yonge for the entire route. Alon Levy, who famously brought attention to the subway cost inflation problem, thinks that cut and cover is sorely under-used in most developed countries.

In the EWCE (Eglinton West Crosstown Extension) video someone posted, the reason Metrolinx claimed for not using cut-and-cover was road impacts as well as utility relocations.

Ignoring the specific case of EWCE, someone should look at the cost of doing all of that relocation, reducing station cost, and being able to build more neighbourhood stations vs. the tunnel-boring alternative. I don’t have a background in transit or civil engineering, so I can’t tell what wins out in $$$ terms. Also, I get the sense that politicians are terrified of the public getting up in arms, unlike back in the day, where plebs just had to deal.

 

[drum118]

I think Munro makes a good point that we are nearing a place in which neighborhood stations are simply too unaffordable to build. This is not the first time a subway plan has recommended bypassing most of the neighborhoods it was originally meant to serve to cut costs (Scarborough subway, though thankfully they reversed course on that, and the western segment of the Ontario line). It's a concerning trend in subway development in our region. Subways need to do more than just connect urban growth nodes and major transfer points.

North York Centre station was built after the fact and one reason for side platforms. Hording had to be place over the tracks while the station was being built,

Unless stations are now part of a development on day one, they are very expensive stand alone stations until something gets built to support one.

 

[Tuck]

In the EWCE (Eglinton West Crosstown Extension) video someone posted, the reason Metrolinx claimed for not using cut-and-cover was road impacts as well as utility relocations.

Ignoring the specific case of EWCE, someone should look at the cost of doing all of that relocation, reducing station cost, and being able to build more neighbourhood stations vs. the tunnel-boring alternative. I don’t have a background in transit or civil engineering, so I can’t tell what wins out in $$$ terms. Also, I get the sense that politicians are terrified of the public getting up in arms, unlike back in the day, where plebs just had to deal.

I have an idea: let's move some money around by skipping the tunnelling on that line by elevating all of it, and then build this line with all planned stations?

*Shrug*