[Torontovibe]

I agree about Toronto being obsessed with diversity. I constantly hear people praising it, and yet I have never heard anybody mention a single advantage of it. Perhaps it's more about the city's obsession with standing out, and diversity is an easy way to do it ("It's the city where you always need to communicate with hand gestures!").

Great ethnic restaurants in every part of the city. When I need my chicken shwarma, it's never far away. Then there is all the ethnic festivals which go on all summer long. Oh, I can think of lots more but if someone wants to see only the negative side of things, why waste my time.

 

[Thanos]

I agree about Toronto being obsessed with diversity. I constantly hear people praising it, and yet I have never heard anybody mention a single advantage of it. Perhaps it's more about the city's obsession with standing out, and diversity is an easy way to do it ("It's the city where you always need to communicate with hand gestures!").

You can't think of a single advantage? How about the greek, italian, indian, portuguese, caribbean, polish, chineese, etc. festivals all around the city. How about all the different types of restaurants you can find all over our city.
How about being able to learn and experience about various cultures without stepping out of your own city.
Is that not enough?

 

[Tewder]

I'm sure Toronto will eventually have it's own accent. As time goes on, the accents in North America will only diverge further, just as they have in England.

... but isn't it the case more and more that regional accents are in fact disappearing, that language is standardizing through growing access to media etc. It's sort of the Tower of Babel phenom.

As a sidebar to this topic though has anybody else noticed how English Montrealers tend to speak English with a syntax and in a way that is heavily influenced by the somewhat broken patterns of francophones speaking English? A number of times I've been there talking English with somebody who I would swear is francophone but then find out that they are actually born and bred anglo...

 

[Dan416]

... but isn't it the case more and more that regional accents are in fact disappearing, that language is standardizing through growing access to media etc. It's sort of the Tower of Babel phenom.

As a sidebar to this topic though has anybody else noticed how English Montrealers tend to speak English with a syntax and in a way that is heavily influenced by the somewhat broken patterns of francophones speaking English? A number of times I've been there talking English with somebody who I would swear is francophone but then find out that they are actually born and bred anglo...

It's hard to say. I know Poland's regional accents all but disappeared in the wake of Communism and widespread education.

But I don't think the same thing is happening here. Canada is so large and vast and people so far away from each other, it doesn't matter how much TV we watch, our accent is based on the people around us. If anything Canadian English is diverging from American English accent-wise. Language is fluid and vowels change over time, e.g. the Great Vowel Shift, and a more recent example being hte Northern Cities Shift in the US which gives e.g. Buffalo residents that harsh way of saying "cat" which to use sounds like "cyat".

 

[dahusbandofbath]

I know a lot of dialects are fading or have already faded from the European map. Apparently 100 years ago, someone from London might barely be able to communicate with someone from Edinburgh. Of course today, while different accents persist, the English and the Scots can, for the most part, do business without interpreters. However, that doesn't mean that new accents don't develop. I've read a lot about "Estuary English" (refering to English spoken in the SE of England); a designatin that didin't exist 50 years ago.

 

[dahusbandofbath]

Now I've never been to Woodbridge, but if it sounds like Italian-American (I think I read that somewhere) then I don't think it's very widespread. Granted, I don't know a lot of Italians but I don't know any who talk like that, at least not here in Mississauga.

I'm not sure what constitutes a "long and pure" oo sound. Maybe if you used the IPA system that'd clear things up?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:IPA_for_English

I'd be interested to see if there's been any change in the "Toronto" accent since I was in high school (late 90s early 00s).

The intonation of "Woodbridge English" is reminiscent of Italian-American Englsih except that it seems to me that your stereotypical Goodfella would have lots of American vowels, such as (I wish I could type in IPA)a-ow -about, kyant - can't, o-wa- New York/talk.

P.S. When I refer to pure vowels, more or less I'm refering to ones that, in IPA, lack a colon after them: versus [u:] The colon elongates the "u", and, to my ear, in Ontario, there's a hint of a short "i" at the beginning of it.

 

[dahusbandofbath]

I'm sure Toronto will eventually have it's own accent. As time goes on, the accents in North America will only diverge further, just as they have in England.

That said, I haven't heard any people in my area (Mississauga) say "about" and "house" the American way.

I know there's lots of Jamaicans in Toronto but I haven't noticed them influencing normal people's accents. Some people may emulate them, but that's different. Unless you have some specific examples to share!

I haven't really noticed the Jamaican accent influencing non-Jamaican Torontonians, although it's certainly a popular accent to put on! However, I do notice teenagers, regardless of their heritage, frequently using Jamaican expressions -- especially when they're trying to effect some street cred! For example "tiefin'" (thieving) is a word I hear all the time from white, black & brown kids at school.

 

[Dan416]

Does it strike anyone else as pretentious when Peter Mansbridge and some other newscasters use a pronunciation such as "shejule" for "schedule"? Or "leftenant" for "lieutenant"? I'm sorry but I couldn't say those things with a straight face. I'm all for keeping spellings like "valour" and "honour" because they're pretty. But "leftenant" just doesn't make any sense to me.

But anyway the sections on Toronto English on Wikipedia are pretty weak in my opinion:

From the article on Canadian English:

Toronto
See also: West/Central Canadian English#Toronto

Although only 1.5% of Torontonians speak French, about 56.2% are native speakers of English, according to the 2006 Census.[34] As a result Toronto shows a more variable speech pattern.[35] Although slang terms used in Toronto are synonymous with those used in other major North American cities, there is also an influx of slang terminology originating from Toronto's many immigrant communities. These terms originate mainly from various European, Asian, and African words. Among youths in predominantly Jamaican areas, a large number of words borrowed from Jamaican Patois can be heard.

From the article on Western/Central Canadian English:

Toronto

Suburban residents are known to merge the second /t/ with the /n/ in Toronto, pronouncing the name variously as [toˈɹɒɾ̃o], [təˈɹɒɾ̃o] or even [ˈtɹɒɾ̃o] or [ˈtɹɒɾ̃ə].

In Toronto and the areas surrounding Toronto (Central Ontario, Greater Toronto Area), the th sound /ð/ is often pronounced [d]. Sometimes /ð/ is elided altogether, resulting in "Do you want this one er'iss one?" The word southern is often pronounced with [aʊ]. In the regional area north of York and south of Parry Sound, notably among those who were born in these bedroom communities (Barrie, Vaughan, Orillia, Bradford, Newmarket), the cutting down of syllables is often heard, e.g. "probably" is reduced to "prolly", or "probly" when used as a response.

In Toronto's ethnic communities there are many words that are distinct; many of which come from the city's large Caribbean community.

EDIT: Just hearing my brother and his girl talk, how does everyone here pronounce "new"? Do you rhyme it with "do" or with "few"?

 

[dahusbandofbath]

I probably am a snob, but I kinda like that there is a pretentious authority to look to for English in Canada (CBC)! Why should the British corner that market?

I agree that the first article about Toronto English seems a bit weak and unresearched. I like the second one, though -- although it really applies a lot more to rural Ontario around Toronto than to Toronto. The bit about "th" becoming "d" is surprising to me, but all the other observations are bang on, especially if you head up north of Major Mac!

 

[CN Tower]

I just read a horrible article in the Toronto Star about how truly diverse Toronto is as a city (as if we haven't heard this one before). The basis for his arguement was that on a visit to London, everyone on the subway was speaking English (God forbid). I guess every city should feel like one big ESL class.

The truth is, London is a much more important city on the international stage and has almost the exact same level of racial and ethnic diversity as Toronto. Not to mention many other cities are diverse such as New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles, and Chicago.

So Toronto needs a much better claim to fame than diversity, when so many other cities are just as diverse. Everytime I read an article about diversity I cringe.

Why is Toronto so fixated on diversity and multiculturalism?

(racial) diversity and multiculturalism connote widespread tolerance and acceptance of people from foreign lands. That attitude engenders a sense of spiritual openness and opportunity unavailable in so many large and important cities. Though we are not immune from racial tensions our openness as a society is easily an extremely noteworthy humanitarian accomplishment particularly in an era of explosive racial and religious tension in other parts of the world. This attitude is really Canadian at its heart but best demonstrated in Toronto by virtue of its large urban landscape. It just screams. 'hey friend, you are welcome here!'. Does Paris, or Tokyo for that matter, both clearly more important world cities, convey that message to its citizenry?

Btw, Lawrence Park is easily 90% WASP or WASP-ish.

 

[vicente]

I'd rather have what toronto has where everyone can maintain their culture

Who is "their" referring to? Non-white people?

Can I choose which of the many diverse cultures in Toronto I belong to, or are my customs, traditions, values, music, cuisine, and language defined by the color of my skin and whatever my ancestors choose to follow?

When people see Jack Layton, do they see the cultural British Isles (e.g. fish and chips and warm beer) the same way people see David Suzuki's Japan (e.g. sushi and sake)?

In what way are "visible minorities" visible?

------

 

[nfitz]

Does it strike anyone else as pretentious when Peter Mansbridge and some other newscasters use a pronunciation such as "shejule" for "schedule"? Or "leftenant" for "lieutenant"?

I'm not even sure how else you'd say schedule ... oh hang on ... he's dropping the C? Yikes ... I'm British, and I don't even drop the C ... maybe it varies in various British dialects.

As for loo-tenant ... I'm not sure how you can say that with a straight face. I have to take a piss ... where's the loo-tenant. What happens when he gets promoted ... do they make him a craptain?

 

[Tewder]

This attitude is really Canadian at its heart but best demonstrated in Toronto by virtue of its large urban landscape. It just screams. 'hey friend, you are welcome here!'. Does Paris, or Tokyo for that matter, both clearly more important world cities, convey that message to its citizenry?

Btw, Lawrence Park is easily 90% WASP or WASP-ish.

Actually, yes. Paris has been saying 'bienvenue' for probably far longer than Toronto has, and has a history of being open and welcoming to people of different races, cultures, religions, political backgrounds and sexual orientations. Lets not mistake a culture that doesn't promote official multiculturalism for an intolerant/unwelcoming culture.... and vice versa for that matter. For all our promoting of multiculturalism we have been completely incapable of preventing the emergence of pervasive cultural balkanization/ghettoization within the city and in its suburbs. We consistently choose to blame the 'wasps' for keeping to themselves but in fact all immigrant groups are pretty much choosing to do the same thing.

 

[Dan416]

I probably am a snob, but I kinda like that there is a pretentious authority to look to for English in Canada (CBC)! Why should the British corner that market?

I agree that the first article about Toronto English seems a bit weak and unresearched. I like the second one, though -- although it really applies a lot more to rural Ontario around Toronto than to Toronto. The bit about "th" becoming "d" is surprising to me, but all the other observations are bang on, especially if you head up north of Major Mac!

I can be a bit of snob, but using British pronunciations with a Canadian accent sounds a little ridiculous in my mind. Just a personal opinion.

You like the second paragraph eh? Hmm I haven't heard a lot of "th" being changed into a "d". But I guess in boonies that happens. But we're talking about Toronto English, not hicktown English!
Cutting down the syllables I've noticed a bit, but I think it's simply laziness and not indicative of an accent. It also says some people here say "southern" with the "aʊ" sound (the sound in "cow"), but I haven't noticed that myself.

I'm not even sure how else you'd say schedule ... oh hang on ... he's dropping the C? Yikes ... I'm British, and I don't even drop the C ... maybe it varies in various British dialects.

As for loo-tenant ... I'm not sure how you can say that with a straight face. I have to take a piss ... where's the loo-tenant. What happens when he gets promoted ... do they make him a craptain?

In regards to schedule, I'm pointing out the different between the British pronunciation "shejule" and American pronunciation "skedjewel" if that helps you to understand what I mean.

In regards to lieutenant, let's see what Wikipedia says:

The word lieutenant derives from French; the lieu meaning "in place" as in a position (cf. in lieu of); and tenant meaning "holding" as in "holding a position"; thus a "lieutenant" is somebody who holds a position in the absence of his or her superior (compare the Latin locum tenens).

Now let's see: I've never heard anyone say "in left of" when they meant "in lieu of". Let's read on:

The earlier history of the pronunciation is unclear; Middle English spellings suggest that the /l(j)uː-/ and /lɛf-/ pronunciations existed even then.[2] The rare Old French variant spelling luef for Modern French lieu ('place') supports the suggestion that a final [w] of the Old French word was in certain environments perceived as an [f].[2]

I'll acknowledge the "f" in the Old French, but seeing as the SPELLING uses the Modern French "lieu" and Modern French "lieu" doesn't have an "f" sound in it, so why should we insert one that's not in there?

 

[vicente]

It's all an effort to be different from the Americans rather than being distinctly Canadian.