nfitz
Superstar
Well perhaps a 5-second search would tell me that, but I'm not sure a 5 second search would!A 5 second search will tell you that unimaginative2 is one of the strongest supporters of subway expansions
Well perhaps a 5-second search would tell me that, but I'm not sure a 5 second search would!A 5 second search will tell you that unimaginative2 is one of the strongest supporters of subway expansions
That's just plain rude - there is not call for that. If you want to be an asshole about this, perhaps you could just not post.He is trying to say that supporting one project doesn't mean opposing another, completely unrelated project. Maybe it does in the streetcar fanboy la-la-land where all subways must be opposed lest they preclude construction of a few miles of streetcar.
I noted my calculations, and made it clear what was assumptions. I really don't see how it is going to be about by more than 20% or so. The number is not disimiliar to the the Spadina subway cost made a couple of years ago of $2 billion for 8.6 km; presumably that will increase somewhat when escalated to account for the delays in construction. In a 2003 document the TTC (in 2003 $) estimated the Spadina subway would cost $1.75 billion. If you inflate that to the current, it comes to about $2.1 billion (ignoring the current labour shortage and high steel prices). At best the Sheppard subway extension would cost $2 billion. It's easily going to be $2.5 billion by the time you buy the trains as well.Not sure where you're getting your figures. Does the $2.5 billion figure for Sheppard come from anywhere other than your imagination?
... and the TTC is also been working on the Spadina expansion. And they are fully aware the GTTA is pushing a Yonge expansion on them. And there's all the GO upgrades. My god, is nothing good enough? Are you trying to ignore that much of these LRT construction is going to be in tunnels? Just how do you think the Don Mills LRT is going to get into downtown - have you read the EA documents?No, Transit City is the TTC's plan for expansion, and it's all-streetcar. That is the future of the TTC. $6 billion in streetcar lines. That's the problem. All we're getting is streetcars
That's not the comment I've heard from people using it. I confess I don't get that far north that often, but I know people who live up there.A big success? It doesn't save people a minute of time.
I take it irregularily - it's never seemed like that when I've been on it. Very frequent and regular.? Have you ever, ever ridden Spadina? I live on Spadina, and it's the most unreliable service in the entire city. Today, it was five of them that were bunched up, and I had to wait 25 minutes. When I used to take it from Front to Hoskin, I would have to budget at least 40 minutes for a trip that takes at most about 45 minutes to walk. I would regularly wait 20 minutes or more at rush hour, and then two or three would have to pass me by, overfull, before I could climb on car 3 or 4 in the bunch which had nobody aboard.
No, not great for anyone heading from STC to Yonge/Sheppard. I admit that. And frankly, I wish the Sheppard East was at the bottom of the list, so that there was a chance someone else would put the subway back on the table. Or that the subway was extended to Agincourt, and the LRT started there, with the subway being constructed later from there to STC, independent of the LRT.Wow. C'mon, just look at a map! It's going to be completely useless for people going from NYCC to STC, the original purpose of the subway. Scarborough Centre is the hub of transit in Scarborough and by far the biggest trip generator. There's nothing at Markham and Sheppard. Why is it that it's absolutely essential that the transfer be there, kilometres out of the way for the vast majority of riders?
Pfft, such rational and logical thinking is not allowed. Now excuse me while I get back to drawing up my transit master plan. You see, in it, the Eglinton Line bypasses the airport, but a second line will run from the airport and link up with it somewhere in Brampton. Also, that second line will be run with horsecars. Nothing can possibly go wrong.Actually, Giambrone, there's an even easier solution - extend the Sheppard subway.
Well perhaps a 5-second search would tell me that, but I'm not sure a 5 second search would!Well, as I haven't seen his previous arguments, how am I not supposed to extrapolate beyond what he said currently!
Again - surely you mean a 5-second glance ... not a 5 second glance! ROTFLBy search I mean a 5 second glance at literally any other thread in the transportation section.
Morningside may well be a correct assessment - however Jane parallels the Spadina subway?? It's nowhere near except at the terminus. By that analogy the Carlton, Dundas, Queen, and King lines all parallel, and are closer to, the Bloor-Danforth subway. Heck, by that analogy there would be no riders on the Dufferin bus, which lies between Jane and Spadina, because it parallels the Spadina subway - yet it's one of the busiest routes on the system.[/QUOTE]The "choice" between 60km of LRT and 8km of subways (this ratio has flaws, by the way) does not exist. In real life, there isn't a finite sum of money that can only pay for one project at a time. Also in real life, the Morningside line to nowhere or the Jane line that parallels the Spadina subway may be seen as inferior things to spend money on than a subway extension.
Certainly not! The best approach is what will serve the most people. Most of the places where LRT will be constructed are already overloaded and need more, and better, service than buses stuck in traffic can provide. We can give this to 8 km - or 65 km.Quantity = quality, though, right? Whichever option results in more km of infrastructure absolutely *must* be the preferred option, since it "improves access to rapid transit," "represents an investment in underprivileged neighbourhoods" and, mainly, "increases our world-classiness by adding more colourful lines to our transit map."
3 extensions? Don't tell me you're counting that RT extension. If so, please tell me why STC to Markham and Sheppard is more suitable for rapid transit than Sheppard from Don Mills to STC. Anyway, so what? Like I said, none of those are City of Toronto projects, and they're not in the most obvious location for subway in the city: finishing Sheppard.
And why don't think a streetcar running in a tunnel under Eglinton is going to run a lot faster than a bus on the surface? At least in rush-hour.
I do think it's a complete waste of money to renovate an orphan system and extend it to the middle of nowhere, retaining a time-consuming transfer for everyone in Scarborough when for not much more money, we could replace the entire system with a subway extension from Kennedy.
The point is that Toronto asked for not a single subway extension when the Province was prepared to provide full funding for it. This is a disastrous failure. We're never going to get a gift like MoveOntario2020 again. We were offered essentially unlimited money, and we've refused to ask for a single subway improvement.
Wow. C'mon, just look at a map! It's going to be completely useless for people going from NYCC to STC, the original purpose of the subway. Scarborough Centre is the hub of transit in Scarborough and by far the biggest trip generator. There's nothing at Markham and Sheppard. Why is it that it's absolutely essential that the transfer be there, kilometres out of the way for the vast majority of riders?
Quantity = quality, though, right? Whichever option results in more km of infrastructure absolutely *must* be the preferred option, since it "improves access to rapid transit," "represents an investment in underprivileged neighbourhoods" and, mainly, "increases our world-classiness by adding more colourful lines to our transit map."
No, it's not a choice. Move Ontario 2020 funded every serious rapid transit proposal in the province. If the TTC had proposed finishing the Sheppard subway the way it was originally designed, it would have been funded along with the streetcar lines. I don't see why this is so hard to grasp.Way I see it, it's a choice. It's the LRT and no subway. Or bus and no subway. No one is offering a subway.
Like he said, STC is by far the biggest trip generator in Scarborough. It's also Scarborough's downtown and biggest high density area. That's where the transfers should be. Far more people will be inconvenienced by putting the transfer at Markham and Sheppard than at STC. Why would terminating at STC preclude further expansion? There could be light rail exensions north and east from there, which is exactly what people east of McCowan are getting anyway. So what's the difference?Sheppard-Markham IS suitable for rapid transit expansion though. Think about it. NOT every commuter through Scarborough wants STC. Diverting all the way south to almost Ellesmere is time-consuming for anyone living north of the 401. Terminating at STC precludes any further expansion as the TTC will ultimately loop the BD and Sheppard lines into one continuous line, rubbing salt in the wounds of commuters east of McCowan, north/south of STC.
Move Ontario 2020 did not fund every serious rapid transit proposal in the province! It was limited to the GTTA and Kitchener-Waterloo.No, it's not a choice. Move Ontario 2020 funded every serious rapid transit proposal in the province.
If the government thought it was a priority, it could still have funded it. It was no more or less on the table than the Yonge extension which did get funded. I'm almost surprised it didn't get funded, given that Agincourt seems to figure prominently in the GO expansion plans.If the TTC had proposed finishing the Sheppard subway the way it was originally designed, it would have been funded along with the streetcar lines. I don't see why this is so hard to grasp.
Move Ontario 2020 did not fund every serious rapid transit proposal in the province! It was limited to the GTTA and Kitchener-Waterloo.
Again - surely you mean a 5-second glance ... not a 5 second glance! ROTFL
Morningside may well be a correct assessment - however Jane parallels the Spadina subway?? It's nowhere near except at the terminus. By that analogy the Carlton, Dundas, Queen, and King lines all parallel, and are closer to, the Bloor-Danforth subway. Heck, by that analogy there would be no riders on the Dufferin bus, which lies between Jane and Spadina, because it parallels the Spadina subway - yet it's one of the busiest routes on the system.
It also included Hamilton. No other city in the province has any serious mass transit proposals. Ottawa's plan, which was funded, was cancelled by their city council. So yes, every serious mass transit proposal in the province was funded.Move Ontario 2020 did not fund every serious rapid transit proposal in the province! It was limited to the GTTA and Kitchener-Waterloo.
There was no plan to fund! How can the province fund a nonexistent plan? Whether the province should have unilaterally changed Transit City is a whole other debate, but the fact is that wasn't its mandate. Its mandate was to fund existing mass transit projects that were proposed by local governments. That's exactly what it did. Doady's right, it's entirely the city's fault that the Sheppard subway will never be finished.If the government thought it was a priority, it could still have funded it. It was no more or less on the table than the Yonge extension which did get funded. I'm almost surprised it didn't get funded, given that Agincourt seems to figure prominently in the GO expansion plans.
TransitCity was an explicit declaration by the City of Toronto that we do not want the Sheppard subway extended.
edit - There's going to be less than 20,000 riders a day on the RT extension...the Sheppard and Morningside streetcars and the Midtown GO line will absolutely devour whatever ridership currently runs NE from STC. If that's the threshold for what "deserves" upgrades to higher modes than buses, every single arterial road in the city would "deserve" the same thing. STC is a textbook perfect place to terminate a transit line.