[doady]

The city need to prioritize where rapid transit should go. There doesn't have to be a rapid transit line everywhere.

For example, just get rid of the Morningside and Sheppard LRT's and and then you have $1.2 billion that can instead be used to extend the Sheppard subway, at least to Kennedy. Morningside is not a suitable corridor for LRT anyways.

Overall for $6 billion you could not only build the entire Eglinton West and Sheppard East subways, but also the DRL south of Bloor. All rapid transit expansion in Toronto is kind of pointless without at least that portion of the DRL.

 

[ShonTron]

TransitCity was an explicit declaration by the City of Toronto that we do not want the Sheppard subway extended.2. Unlike Jane, Dufferin does not run through thousands of acres of parkland and low density homes.
3. And spending the money on rocket buses would serve far more people. $6 billion of very marginal improvements (Finch West should be great, though) can be seen as obscenely wasteful.

Oh my. Jane running though thousands of acres of parklands and low density homes? I see your point about Sheppard (and generally agree with you, except I'm a little less certain about the conspiracy you talk about), but you lost me completely here. Sure there's the Eglinton Flats, but Jane is pretty damned dense just about all the way from Bloor to Steeles, and doesn't parallel the Spadina Line as close as much of Dufferin does. Jane is also one of the busiest bus routes, along with Dufferin, I might add.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Dufferin is a shorter route with more riders...it wasn't chosen for TransitCity for purely political reasons. Let's see how many people switch from Jane to the Spadina line when it's extended. The condo boom may ensure than any suburban road can become as damned dense as Jane in only a few years, but Jane has no significant employment, retail, etc. (not that Dufferin does either, but I'm not presenting transit options as 'one or the other'). Ridership per km (or something like 'people per direction per hour at one point') should be a more important measure of 'upgrade potential' than total ridership over a long line, anyway.

 

[unimaginative2]

Absolutely, doady, rpgr and Mister F!

SeanTrans, you're right about Jane. I think the bigger problem is that the street is hardly wide enough for a ROW for most of its length. If that means a tunnel, we can play the zero-sum game here too and point out that a 4km tunnel on Jane is far less useful than using that money to finish Sheppard.

That's just plain rude - there is not call for that. If you want to be an asshole about this, perhaps you could just not post.

I'm sorry for saying that, and I wasn't referring specifically to you. I might also suggest that you wait to post until after you have read what others have written.

I certainly don't oppose subways. I have written plenty of support for the Sheppard East extension - and the Queen subway. However, they are expensive. If the money isn't there, why not build 65 km of LRT rather than 8 km of subway?

There's been a detailed study on new downtown rapid transit. Once again, read the Transit Toronto article which summarizes the history. They examined Queen and determined it to be the least attractive east-west option through downtown. Front/Railway or Wellington/Front were deemed to be the best. With the new East Bayfront and other waterfront redevelopment, coupled with the inherent cost savings, I would go with the Front/Railway alignment.

This is the problem. If the money isn't there. Who other than you is saying that the money isn't there. The money is there. As others have said, MoveOntario2020 funded every rapid transit project in the province (Pardon me, the GTTA, of which Toronto is incidentally a part) that municipalities proposed. York Region proposed Yonge and Spadina subway extensions. Toronto proposed busways for both of those routes, and a streetcar for Sheppard. Fortunately, the province went with York's view on the trans-boundary projects. Unfortunately, there was no opposing view in the all-Toronto Sheppard corridor, so Miller/Giambrone's streetcar fixation won out.

I also love the constant addition of the cost of vehicles for subway extensions. It never includes the savings from the dozens of buses that can be eliminated. Incidentally, the Transit City cost projections do include bus savings.

... and the TTC is also been working on the Spadina expansion. And they are fully aware the GTTA is pushing a Yonge expansion on them. And there's all the GO upgrades. My god, is nothing good enough? Are you trying to ignore that much of these LRT construction is going to be in tunnels? Just how do you think the Don Mills LRT is going to get into downtown - have you read the EA documents?

Toronto transit "supporters" really are the most baffling breed. In what other city would "supporters" say to each other, "My god, is nothing good enough?" Transit supporters tend to support transit projects, including ones as obvious as finishing a half-built line, rather than converting it midway to an inferior mode for purely political reasons, when the funding is so clearly available.

Yes, I've read the EA documents. I've read hundreds and hundreds of EA documents. There's no serious reflection at all on how people from Don Mills will get downtown, other than vague speculation on an extension (which will therefore not get funding from MoveOntario2020 because the city didn't bother to include it in its plans).

I'm also deeply uncertain about all of these LRT tunnels. The TTC has demonstrated no ability whatsoever at running LRT lines. Spadina is 3km long, has its own ROW for its complete length, and is completely unreliable. It operates on no discernable schedule whatsoever. If the TTC can't handle a 3km line, how are they going to handle a 45km Eglinton line. I have fears of streetcars moving in packs of five through the billion-dollar-tunnel, followed by a gap of half an hour.

I just can't believe the negativity here. Sure there are issues. Sure subways would be better - but there's a lot more that can be done with streetcars for the $. And at the same time, there is more subway construction now planned in the next decade than anytime since the 1960s.

The negativity is because this is a once in a lifetime opportunity where $ is not an issue. The province has given us a blank cheque and we still use "lack of funds" to justify an inferior mode! This may never come back, and we may be looking at ourselves 20 years down the line saying "How could we possibly have been so stupid to miss this opportunity?

 

[unimaginative2]

Obviously he doesn't see the conventional wisdom in bypassing and avoiding surface pedestrians, traffic lights, gridlock, faulty roads, weather impediments, trevassing steep elevations, overcrowding, constant passenger pick-up/drop-off, onload/offload of wheelchairs/strollers, surly TTC drivers, fair disputes, etc.

Yeah, I get the advantage of a tunnel. The problem is that most of the line isn't in tunnel, and the TTC has an abysmal record at managing surface streetcars. The tunnel's pretty useless if the headways are already all screwed up before they can use it.

True, you could look at it like that or consider SRT it's own line, not an extension of BD. Would you really want to sit on the same train from McCowan/Ellesmere all the way to Yonge St? Not only is it montonous it's unhealthy affecting the circulatory system.

!!!

Too bad there isn't a emoticon for laughing my a** off! You honestly expected the government to spend 17 billion dollars exclusively on Toronto's meandering suburban subway futilities?

They're spending $6.5 billion on Toronto's meandering suburban streetcar "futilities". They're spending about $4 billion on subways for York.

If there was half a brain between the city and the TTC someone would've advocated for a Queen Line and/or at least the beginnings of a subway to Pearson. Since everyone cares so little about where density actually lies but rather where it could lie... someday... far... indifintely FAR ...tapering off into the abyss...

STC is a big trip generator because people have no choice but to commute to it in order to transfer onto another route home. As more options open up for Scarborough residents the less the demand for STC will be. Markham Road is one of most suitable arteries in Toronto to support subways. Centennial College-bound buses are always running and the Milner Business Court has the highest ratio of offices in Scarborough after Consumers and STC.

Yeah, that sounds like TTC thinking. Build rapid transit to the third-largest office concentration and completely ignore the biggest two. Markham is hardly one of the most suitable corridors for subway. It's pretty absurd to

Sheppard itself has not much in the present but today's vacant fields can become tommorow's CityPlace or MCC (Malvern City Centre).

Did you not just say two lines up "Since everyone cares so little about where density actually lies but rather where it could lie... someday... far... indifintely FAR ...tapering off into the abyss..."

Besides, the area is developed. The area at the intersection which was supposed to have been a big office park is now townhouses and a Chinese community centre.

Also take note that the path to STC southeast of Agincourt would run through lands not favorable to rapid development, hence expect vistas of decaying machinery, decrepit factories, smog-clogged highways and railways NOT mass development.

That sounds a lot like Cityplace to me!

Anyway, the area between Kennedy and STC, if that's what you're talking about, is pretty irrelevant. There's one stop which will be fed by a busy bus route. The point is to get to the development centre at STC.

Precisely! Adding more lines to an already well served part of the city is redundant and prejudicial whereby people are ostracized by their postal code. No one wants to ride on the Finch or Royal York buses from Albion Mall to the subway for 2+ hours. TC at least recognizes and fulfill a niche subways never will. Heck if 300, 000 commuters downtown can't get a west-east subway, what's the hope for the rest of us?

Well, apparently pretty good if you live in York Region. Unfortunately, no subway for you if you're in Toronto. No transit improvement at all, if you're from downtown.

Places like Finch West are great for LRT. I look forward to that route being built. It will be a great complement to the Spadina subway extension. Look for Finch West to become one of the busiest stations on the system.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Finch West will relieve the Bloor subway line...people in the NW/Rexdale area that take buses all the way south (from Steeles, even) to get downtown will certainly switch to the Spadina line. Even if only 10% of Bloor riders switch to Spadina, that's a significant achievement. Finch West + Spadina extension should quickly trigger a visible increase in the area's overall transit usage.

 

[CDL.TO]

Let's just hope that they design Finch West with speed in mind... perhaps even consider using the hydro corridor from the 400 to the Spadina Line. It's 300m north of Finch, which can be compared to current conditions at St. Clair West:
- 280m from the south entrance of St. Clair West to the north entrance as the crow flies.
- 545m walk around the block to the north entrance if you want to buy tickets or a pass (which TTC passengers are told to do).
- 280m walk to catch the 512 streetcar to Oakwood.
- 445m walk to catch the 512 bus to Keele.

 

[unimaginative2]

I definitely think that's not going to happen. Both Steve Munro and Giambrone have said that all the new lines must be built in road medians, specifically mentioning the Finch Hydro Corridor as an unacceptable alternative.

To give an idea of Toronto's out-of-line subway construction costs, which seem to be much higher than anywhere other than New York, here's a quotation from a Washington study:
"The preliminary cost estimate for drilling 6 new miles of rock tunnel, adding 6 stations and 40 new rail cars, and expanding the Alexandria rail yard and maintenance shop in 2002 dollars is $1.65 billion."

 

[RedRocket191]

I definitely think that's not going to happen. Both Steve Munro and Giambrone have said that all the new lines must be built in road medians, specifically mentioning the Finch Hydro Corridor as an unacceptable alternative.

The problem with hydro corridors is that no one lives in them. If you want to maximize ridership, it has to be close to the street right-of-way. Unfortunately, this means that it will be more expensive and has to interface with traffic more often.

 

[CDL.TO]

No one lives in a street either. Now, if a street is located close to population and destinations, that's another matter. The same should hold true for hydro corridors. No one lives in rail corridors either, but they carry far more passengers than streets do all over the world. Stations are located where they cross streets anyway, not mid block. If you want to maximise ridership, you do not have to run it in the street, you need to provide good quality transit offering higher speeds and reliability. Bloor and most of Yonge doesn't run directly in the street corridor, it's off to the side but it would be foolish to think that this effects ridership.

If the TTC stopped and look at light rail that has been built in Europe and North America in the past decade or two, running in the street (even with a ROW) is something that's only done where there are no other alternatives.

 

[doady]

I hope they take advantage of the existing ROW along Eglinton in Etobicoke too; it would be ridiculous if they don't.

 

[Tuscani01]

I hope they take advantage of the existing ROW along Eglinton in Etobicoke too; it would be ridiculous if they don't.

I will lose all faith in Toronto's planning department and the TTC if they don't.

 

[allabootmatt]

I definitely think that's not going to happen. Both Steve Munro and Giambrone have said that all the new lines must be built in road medians, specifically mentioning the Finch Hydro Corridor as an unacceptable alternative.

WHY, WHY, WHY!?!?!!?!?!??!

For smart guys, those two can be pretty #^&!#^&$@&^%# stupid sometimes.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

TORONTO TRANSIT COMMISSION
REPORT NO.



MEETING DATE: November 14, 2007


SUBJECT: PROJECT APPROVAL – TRANSIT CITY LIGHT RAIL PLAN
(FIRST PRIORITIES)





RECOMMENDATIONS

It is recommended that the Commission:

1) Approve interim funds of $13 million to allow engineering, design, and associated work to begin on the Sheppard East, Etobicoke-Finch West, and Eglinton-Crosstown LRT lines and on the required maintenance & storage (M&S) facilities, and for the supply of special trackwork for the Park Lawn/Lake Shore Loop and the design of a new LRT loop at Kipling/Lake Shore, both of which are part of the Waterfront West LRT line;

2) Forward this report to Toronto’s Budget Committee for review in connection with the 2008-2012 Capital Program submission, noting that these costs, which are currently below the line in the TTC 2008-2012 Capital Program, will require an additional $13 million in budgetary and project financing approval. Funds to a maximum of $400,000 will be held in TTC accounts pending City Council approval.

3) Request the City of Toronto to provide interim funding for these measures until such time as the Province of Ontario and the GTTA allocate sufficient funds, noting that delays in making these commitments and initiating project work will result in delays to the construction start dates noted in the report.

4) Request the Province of Ontario and the Greater Toronto Transportation Authority to provide the funding for this work on the Transit City plan, consistent with the Province of Ontario’s MoveOntario 2020 funding program; and

5) Subject to the confirmation of funding from the City of Toronto, approve:
i) the hiring of TTC staff for the implementation of the above Transit City Project work as shown on Exhibit 2, noting that recruitment will start immediately;
ii) approve the issuance of a Purchase Order, in the total interim amount of $750,000 [included in 1 above], to the City of Toronto – Transportation Services, for the City’s costs associated with the design and construction support of the Transit City LRT lines;

6) Forward this report to the City of Toronto Planning and Transportation Services.


FUNDING

There are no funds currently approved for design, construction, additional staff resources, and/or other activities related to the implementation of the Transit City Light Rail Plan. Full project implementation costs are included below the line in the 2008-2012 TTC Capital Program.

Funding for this plan was announced by the Province of Ontario on June 15, 2007, under the MoveOntario 2020 program. This report requests the Greater Toronto Transportation Authority (GTTA) to provide the required funding consistent with that program. Pending the provision of such funding or confirmation of funding approval from the City, a maximum of $400,000 will need to be held in TTC accounts.

Funds, in the amount of $3.5 million, for the environmental assessments of the Transit City LRT lines are included in the TTC 2007-2011 Capital Program, under Project 3.9 Environmental Assessment Studies for a BRT/LRT Network, Category Improvement, as set out in pages 992e1-992e2, and approved by City Council on March 7, 2007. Additional funds to a total of $7.1 million for Transit City environmental assessments, have been included in the 2008-2012 TTC Capital Program.


BACKGROUND

At its meeting of June 13, 2007, the Commission approved a report entitled, Transit City Light Rail Plan – Implementation Work Plan, which outlined the activities being undertaken to implement the Transit City Light Rail Plan. That report presented a work plan to allow for the start of construction on at least one of the light rail lines by 2010.

On June 15, 2007, the Province of Ontario announced the MoveOntario 2020 funding program for the implementation of 52 rapid transit initiatives in the GTHA over the next twelve years. MoveOntario 2020 includes funding for all of the light rail lines in the Transit City Light Rail Plan.

Following the release of MoveOntario 2020, TTC staff were directed to revisit their original implementation work plan to identify ways of accelerating the plan to more closely match the twelve-year time frame contained in the Provincial plan, including the feasibility of starting construction on one of the light rail lines as early as 2008.

At its meeting of July 11, 2007, the Commission approved a report entitled, Transit City Light Rail Plan – Implementation Work Plan Update, which revised the previously-reported work plan to accommodate the start of construction of new Transit City lines by 2008 and match the Province’s twelve-year timetable. It also approved the recommendations contained within the report, which included a commitment by staff to report back on implementation plans for specific lines.


This report identifies the action required to initiate the activities included in the Transit City Light Rail Plan – Implementation Work Plan Update and outlines the 2008 funding requirements necessary in order to realize those timelines.


DISCUSSION

The staff report entitled, Transit City Light Rail Plan – Evaluation and Ranking of Routes, which is also on the agenda of the November 14, 2007 Commission meeting, assessed all seven of the light rail lines which comprise the Transit City plan, and confirmed the earlier staff conclusion that the Sheppard East, Etobicoke-Finch West, and Eglinton-Crosstown LRT lines are good choices for the start of implementation of the Transit City plan.

TTC staff are committed to take every possible measure to ensure that the Transit City plan is implemented as quickly as possible, and are presently working aggressively to that end.

Funding has already been approved for doing environmental assessments (EA) of the Transit City lines, and staff are readying these EA’s to start, using the newly-approved Municipal Class EA process for transit projects. A request for proposal (RFP) was issued on October 17, 2007 for consultant assignments to assist the TTC with environmental assessments (EA) and design services on Transit City projects. The award of the EA and design services contract is planned for January 2008.

The additional Transit City implementation activities which can proceed upon approval of this report by the Commission are:

· Sheppard East LRT: engineering and design work in 2007 for a construction start early in 2009

· Etobicoke-Finch West LRT: engineering and design work in 2008 for a construction start late in 2009

· Eglinton-Crosstown LRT: engineering and design work in 2008 for a construction start in 2010

· Waterfront West LRT: engineering and design of a new loop at Kipling Avenue/Lake Shore Boulevard, and purchase of special trackwork for a new loop at Park Lawn Road/Lake Shore Boulevard for a construction start in 2009, and

· Maintenance and Storage Facilities: engineering and design work in 2008 for a construction start in 2010.

Sheppard East LRT: Work is about to begin on a Municipal Class Environmental Assessment for the Sheppard East LRT. Under the Class EA, design work can begin as soon as practical, concurrent with the EA process. The TTC and the City of Toronto have entered into an inter-agency agreement for detailed design, engineering, and construction support for the Sheppard East LRT line. The agreement was developed with a goal of starting construction on the line in 2009.

Etobicoke-Finch West LRT: TTC staff are planning to start an EA on this line early in 2008. TTC staff have also been meeting with Infrastructure Ontario and the GTTA on the screening process and the analysis of Finch West LRT for an alternate financing program (AFP)/design build delivery model.

Eglinton-Crosstown LRT: TTC staff are working to allow a 2008 start on an EA for this line. The Eglinton-Crosstown line introduces the added complexity of a significant section of tunnelled construction. Additionally, this is the longest of the Transit City routes, traversing all six of the former local municipalities.

Waterfront West LRT: The environmental assessment of this line is already underway, as directed by City Council. A relatively easily achievable improvement on this line is the introduction of a new loop at Park Lawn Road and Lake Shore Boulevard, in order to bring a higher level of service to the rapidly- and densely-developing Humber Bay Shores area. The design of the Park Lawn Loop will be completed in 2007. The new loop will require special trackwork (as is used in all loops and intersections), and this custom-ordered work requires a considerable lead time. In order to allow a 2009 construction start, the TTC must order this trackwork now. A separate report, which is also on the November 14, 2007 Commission meeting agenda, describes the status of this loop initiative in greater detail.

TTC staff are also planning to start engineering and design work in 2008 on relocating the existing Kipling/Lake Shore loop. This work was initiated in response to a private development proposal adjacent to the existing loop. The developer wants to purchase the property on which the current loop is located, in order to be able to build a larger and more-attractive mixed-use development. This proposal is consistent with the Toronto Official Plan objective of locating new, dense development on major arterial roads which are served by high-capacity transit services. The development would be compatible with, and beneficial to the Waterfront West LRT line, so TTC staff are acting to facilitate this positive city-building proposal.

Maintenance and Storage Facilities: All transit services – buses, subways, or LRV’s – require maintenance and storage facilities in order to ensure safe and reliable operation. Work is underway presently to determine the optimal arrangement for the required maintenance facilities to support the Transit City LRT network. The Transit City lines which will be the first to undergo environmental assessments -- Sheppard East, Etobicoke-Finch West, and Eglinton-Crosstown -- may have to initially operate independent of the existing TTC streetcar network and each other, possibly based out of interim storage facilities. The Maintenance Facility Master Plan is studying the various options for permanent facilities and, when completed, will allow start of engineering and design work.

Implementation plans for the Scarborough-Malvern LRT, Jane Street LRT, and Don Mills LRT will be addressed in subsequent reports to the Commission.


JUSTIFICATION

In order to meet the Province of Ontario’s MoveOntario 2020 timeline commitments for the full build-out of the Transit City Light Rail Plan in twelve years, and the TTC’s and City’s objective to begin construction on at least one LRT line in 2008, engineering and design work must begin immediately.

- - - - - - - - - - -


November 2, 2007
50/11-71-70/80
1115228

Attachments: Exhibits 1 and 2













EXHIBIT 1




PROJECT APPROVAL - TRANSIT CITY LIGHT RAIL PLAN


ESTIMATED COST COMMITMENTS FOR TRANSIT CITY
PLANNING AND IMPLEMENTATION ACTIVITIES




$million
Sheppard East LRT (Incl. $ 500K for City staff)
4.7
Etobicoke-Finch West LRT (Incl. $ 125K for City staff)
2.0
Eglinton-Crosstown LRT (Incl. $ 125K for City staff)
2.7
Waterfront West LRT: Park Lawn Loop
1.0
Waterfront West LRT: Kipling Loop
0.2
Maintenance and Storage Facilities
2.4

13.0

 

[299 bloor call control.]

And the Scarborough RT Extension EA contract is also being awarded today.