[kEiThZ]

DavidH pointed out that the Prestocard website stated that there would be "tapping out" on GO for pass holders travelling on their "regular" route. Hence the issue.

Maybe I am scatter brained today....but I would assume that they would make you tap out anywhere you exit the system....and should you not tap out on your "regular" route then the system would assess a fare against your account (giving you a negative balance if you haven't loaded additional cash on the card). I wouldn't have thought that this would be show-stopper.

EDIT: Just saw DavidH's posts. I agree that's a dilemma. But I am sure there's a way around it or they won't implement it. I would just assume that if you were caught outside your regular route without a separate fare assessed on your Presto that you'd be fined.

 

[DavidH]

EDIT: Just saw DavidH's posts. I agree that's a dilemma. But I am sure there's a way around it or they won't implement it. I would just assume that if you were caught outside your regular route without a separate fare assessed on your Presto that you'd be fined.

Here's how it will work:

1) If you are riding your regular route as defined on your card (e.g. Ajax-Union), you just tap in when you board. The card will note that you are riding your regular route, and if you ride past your regular destination (e.g. to Burlington), any inspectors that check you will know because the card will tell them that, and you will be fined. Enforcement would consist of checking that you are not outside of your default ride. This is exactly equivalent to the current scenario of riding past the destination you've paid for.

2) If you are NOT riding your regular route, there will be a button to "cancel" the regular route on the card reader when you tap in. Then, if you fail to tap out when you leave the train, you will be charged the maximum fare for the route (e.g. for the end of the line). No opportunity for abuse would exist. Enforcement would only consist of checking that people have tapped in.

 

[nfitz]

That's not going to work ... if you have to interact with the machine when you tap in, then people are going to make mistakes. It has to be a simple wave the card at the reader, green means go. The mistake here is requiring some people to tap out, but not others. Though the shear number of people getting off at Union may necessitate this.

They can try and run it this way ... but it will fail - too many accidents/mistakes.

Perhaps the solution is simply that you have to tap out everywhere ... except Union.

We're making progress though ... it's close enough in coming that we are debating details like this!

 

[GenerationW]

It's because of these inane decisions that we have the big mess of incompatible transit lines in Scarborough, and the ridiculousness of trying to forge a crosstown route from Finch West LRT, Sheppard Subway, plus Sheppard East LRT. It's inconvenient, stupid, and messy. I had hoped Metrolinx would rationalize what we're doing, but that's still up in the air whether they do or not.

I agree that the Sheppard East LRT is an incredible waste of money and a shortsighted project (and apparently not opposed by any city councilor???), but what are the chances at this point that Metrolinx would step in and do the right thing by canceling Sheppard?

 

[kEiThZ]

^ Scarborough councillors didn't opposed the SELRT because the choice they were given was between a bus and a LRT not a subway or a LRT.

 

[rbt]

what are the chances at this point that Metrolinx would step in and do the right thing by canceling Sheppard?

Metrolinx insisted that Finch and Sheppard be a continuous line, this immediately eliminated the subway extension to Vic Park as it would cost extra to extend the subway and even more to run LRT on Vic Park and Don Mills.

So, I would say the chance is extremely small.


The whole Finch/Sheppard continuation issue also likely nixes the idea of Sheppard LRT and Sheppard Subway being on the same level since LRT will need to turn north.

In all probability, the length of the Sheppard/Finch line will also make it unreliable and prone to frequent short-turning.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

Until we actually see evidence of funds being allocated to the development of a parallel system or an RFP for such development, it's just political language aimed at putting pressure on the province. In particular, anything from a few months ago is from BEFORE the TTC was ordered to use Presto.

From http://www3.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/smartcard_fare_collection_report.pdf

Funding of $140 million is included under Program 5.2 Integrated Ticketing System in the approved 2007-2011 Capital Program as approved by City council on March 7, 2007. Funding was included under Canada Strategic Infrastructure Fund. The cost of (readers for the GTAFS) does not form part of the $140 million identified for this project.

There is a smart card project underway at TTC. The TTC has not been ordered to use Presto. It has been ordered to include Presto in new Transit City lines. I do not read that as "TTC must now use Presto throughout its whole system".

 

[DavidH]

From http://www3.ttc.ca/PDF/Transit_Planning/smartcard_fare_collection_report.pdf

You're quoting selectively. Look at the recommendation at the beginning. I can't copy it here (it won't let me) but a brief summary would be that the Commission was asked to approve an operational concept, direct staff to talk to the province about how the Greater Toronto Fare Card system (e.g. Presto) can meet these needs and the provincial/federal position on funding, and to ask staff to report back.

Nothing here indicates that there is an actual ongoing project in 2009.

As for whether the TTC has been ordered to use Presto systemwide, I agree, it's unclear and we need more detail. That will come, I'm sure - but given that Presto IS required on the TC lines and presumably the retrofitted SRT, the chances of TTC getting funding for a duplicate system is effectively nil. And certainly, the idea that the TTC would entertain a different fare system implementation on the rest of the system from the TC lines is simply mindboggling.

Obviously, funding and implementation details will still need to be worked out, and I fully expect the TTC to resist on grounds of cost, as they have - but in the end, they will be there.

 

[nfitz]

Metrolinx insisted that Finch and Sheppard be a continuous line, this immediately eliminated the subway extension to Vic Park as it would cost extra to extend the subway and even more to run LRT on Vic Park and Don Mills

To be fair, the TTC report that eliminated the subway extension to Consumers Drive, also assumed that the LRT would terminate in the existing Don Mills station, at the subway level, at the end of the subway line. As that is now being redesigned to deal with the connection to the Finch LRT, then that would suggest that the decision to not extend the subway was separate from the decision to extend the Finch LRT to Don Mills station.

 

[Ansem]

Not finishing Sheppard is the worse mess I've ever seen...

You have a sheppard line that wont connect the future Sheppard East and Sheppard West Station.

My cousin from Montreal laughed for minutes...

what a mess...

 

[lead82]

That's typical Toronto for you. The city without connections. Maybe the politicians here are missing connections in their brains and can't fathom the idea that a subway line should actually go to places and connect to heaven forbid other subway lines!

 

[lead82]

Right now I have a feeling that York Region's Viva Next BRT will be finished way before ANY Transit City route is completed. York has proven that they can get things done when it comes to transit planning. Criticize York Region all you want for sprawl and such, but their transit plan is pretty darn good for a suburban region. Their lines 'connect' logically with other lines, a concept that the TTC should learn from.

Now this whole new bidding process for the TC LRT vehicles? What a joke. Bombardier will win in end anyway, and we would have wasted another year to do a useless bidding process, when all the TTC has to do now is exercise their option for more vehicles. The TTC and the city should be all ashamed at the terrible job their are doing running this city.

 

[Dan416]

Now this whole new bidding process for the TC LRT vehicles? What a joke. Bombardier will win in end anyway, and we would have wasted another year to do a useless bidding process, when all the TTC has to do now is exercise their option for more vehicles. The TTC and the city should be all ashamed at the terrible job their are doing running this city.

Let's assign blame where it belongs. Yes the TTC is terrible at the planning they've done in regards to lines (Sheppard, SRT, etc). But this idea of a whole new bidding process has nothing to do with the TTC, that blame lies squarely on Metrolinx's shoulders.

 

[nfitz]

Not finishing Sheppard is the worse mess I've ever seen...

Are you kidding? You must get out more, if that's the worst mess you've ever seen!

 

[kettal]

That's not going to work ... if you have to interact with the machine when you tap in, then people are going to make mistakes. It has to be a simple wave the card at the reader, green means go. The mistake here is requiring some people to tap out, but not others. Though the shear number of people getting off at Union may necessitate this.

They can try and run it this way ... but it will fail - too many accidents/mistakes.

Perhaps the solution is simply that you have to tap out everywhere ... except Union.

We're making progress though ... it's close enough in coming that we are debating details like this!

I really feel like this is only making things more complicated than it needs to be.

If everybody has to tap out, then imagine 3,000 people getting off a GO train having to line up in order to tap out. Many will want a printed receipt, too. Do we really need more bottlenecks and line-ups?