[golodhendil]

A normal smartcard system would not allow people to get receipts when they tap out, only when they want to check their balance at special machines (a "smart" system, like HK's Octopus, would not have provisions for printed receipts at all).

I can imagine 3000 people getting off a GO train all tapping out, as easily as I can imagine 3000 people getting off an MTR train in HK all tapping out, or 1-20000 getting off several trains arriving at the same time at hub stations in HK or Tokyo, all lining up to tap out.

 

[kEiThZ]

If everybody has to tap out, then imagine 3,000 people getting off a GO train having to line up in order to tap out.

Doesn't seem to be a major challenge in many other countries around the world. If tiny tube stations in central London can handle it, I am sure that Union can be appropriately modified for it.

Many will want a printed receipt, too. Do we really need more bottlenecks and line-ups?

Given that you can check your receipt on-line and by-phone and that the value will be displayed when you tap in or out, I don't think print-outs are a necessity. If they are then a printer can be built into an ATM like device which lets you load money and check your balance, etc.

 

[kEiThZ]

I wonder if Presto will reduce the demand for Metropasses. There's probably at least a few folks out there who pay for the convenience and not necessarily the value. And they'd be perfect contenders to drop their passes and switch to Presto PAYGO.

When it comes to Ottawa, that's certainly going to be the case. There's lots of commuters who get Express passes for the convenience but don't always ending up riding an express bus. For those riders this will be a big deal. Now they can choose between comfort (on an express bus) or convenience (taking the regular bus that's in front of them).

 

[DavidH]

I wonder if Presto will reduce the demand for Metropasses. There's probably at least a few folks out there who pay for the convenience and not necessarily the value. And they'd be perfect contenders to drop their passes and switch to Presto PAYGO.

I would expect that physical Metropasses would be replaced by electronic equivalents loaded on Presto cards. Certainly that is what all other Toronto area transit systems will be doing. You're probably right that some people will stop paying for monthly passes, though.

Given that you can check your receipt on-line and by-phone and that the value will be displayed when you tap in or out, I don't think print-outs are a necessity. If they are then a printer can be built into an ATM like device which lets you load money and check your balance, etc.

Exactly. GO stations (and presumably TTC stations, but I am not sure) will have Presto balance checkers. It's not clear from the pictures I've seen whether these will have printers.

 

[nfitz]

If everybody has to tap out, then imagine 3,000 people getting off a GO train having to line up in order to tap out. Many will want a printed receipt, too. Do we really need more bottlenecks and line-ups?

Which is why I pondered not requiring tapping out at Union ... though even then, everyone has to pass through stairs, so if you put readers at the door, on the stair, in the corridor at the bottom, at the exit; and with the ones on the trains, it's hard to imagine you wouldn't just be able to touch against it with an additional bottleneck.

Receipt? For tapping out? Where do they do that?

 

[DavidH]

Which is why I pondered not requiring tapping out at Union ... though even then, everyone has to pass through stairs, so if you put readers at the door, on the stair, in the corridor at the bottom, at the exit; and with the ones on the trains, it's hard to imagine you wouldn't just be able to touch against it with an additional bottleneck.

Well, this is why GO is going to have this "default trip" mechanism. Most people getting off at Union will be riding their default trip and therefore will NOT need to tap off.

Of course, as has been stated above, having it work one way most for most of your trips and another way for some of your trips is going to produce problems.

 

[Eug]

I don't see what the problem is having tap-on-tap-off for everyone wherever necessary.

IIRC, in places where magnetic strip cards are the norm, the system can have it so people will swipe at entry and exit. People have no problem doing this, even in rush hour.

 

[299 bloor call control.]

I don't understand why people think it's such a hardship to tap out. As stated by others, systems all over the world that are far busier than our piddly TTC and GO Transit systems have absolutely no problem with tap-on and tap-off. Especially with Union Station's GO concourse being completely renovated, there's nothing to say that they can't gate the whole concourse with hundreds (and exaggeration) of readers for people to tap in and out. I've used the busiest stations in London and Hong Kong at the busiest times and never had to queue for more than a moment to tap in or tap out.

As for the need for monthly passes, Presto will replace the pass, but I'd prefer a system where it deducts the ticket/token price until you hit a ceiling - i.e. your weekly cost will never go above the price of the weekly pass and your 30-day cost will never go above the price of the monthly pass. This way, you never pay more than what you need to for your travel and would be far more flexible to the real needs of people.

 

[bleeepbluuup]

I don't understand why people think it's such a hardship to tap out. As stated by others, systems all over the world that are far busier than our piddly TTC and GO Transit systems have absolutely no problem with tap-on and tap-off. Especially with Union Station's GO concourse being completely renovated, there's nothing to say that they can't gate the whole concourse with hundreds (and exaggeration) of readers for people to tap in and out. I've used the busiest stations in London and Hong Kong at the busiest times and never had to queue for more than a moment to tap in or tap out.

Does the Presto card have to make actual contact with the card reader to be recognized? Or can you just wave it in the general direction of the reader?

At school we had these passcards to unlock doors, and they'd work even if they were still inside your bag/wallet/pockets.

 

[golodhendil]

Presto works like any other RFID smartcards: contactless, and can be used inside bags/wallets.

 

[nfitz]

Presto works like any other RFID smartcards: contactless, and can be used inside bags/wallets.

I found the Oyster cards couldn't be buried deeply in the wallet; ... though the ones we use at the office here for the doors can be anywhere.
So it might vary.

 

[nfitz]

As for the need for monthly passes, Presto will replace the pass, but I'd prefer a system where it deducts the ticket/token price until you hit a ceiling - i.e. your weekly cost will never go above the price of the weekly pass and your 30-day cost will never go above the price of the monthly pass. This way, you never pay more than what you need to for your travel and would be far more flexible to the real needs of people.

That sounds nice, but on a weekly, and monthly basis, it might not provide as much incentive to use transit over a personal vehicle, especially at the beginning of the month, compared to have ponied up for a pass (perhaps there could be two pass rates - you pay the current $100 a month discounted rate if you buy in advance; and the current $109 a rate, if you just accumulate until you hit the limit).

It's a great idea for day-passes though; as once you've left the house, you just often don't know how the day is going to unfold ... and you've already left the car behind if you've used transit.

In London the use it to a limit is only running on day passes; 3-day, 7-day and monthly passes have to be done in advance. (one advantage of the card, is you buy the 7-day pass for any 7-day period; not just Monday-Sunday).

 

[DavidH]

I found the Oyster cards couldn't be buried deeply in the wallet; ... though the ones we use at the office here for the doors can be anywhere.
So it might vary.

My big concern will be how compatible they are with multiple cards. I already have one for work and one for my children's daycare in my wallet...

 

[Epi]

The entire Japanese train/subway system requires you to 'tap out'. In fact, they had that concept before there were RFID cards, and in most stations in Japan, you have to physically insert your magnetic ticket into a slot for the machine to read it to let you out of the station.

I highly doubt that Union needs to worry if it's no problem for Shinjuku station as long as they install enough fare-gates.

 

[golodhendil]

My big concern will be how compatible they are with multiple cards. I already have one for work and one for my children's daycare in my wallet...

The card reader would only be able to deduct funds from a card with a chip that has the corresponding recognizable information, so there should only be a problem if there are multiple fare cards of the same type.

PS. I think we have piled on poor kettal enough for his tap-out comment.. there's already a whole page replying to that