[Second_in_pie]

What makes you think that a new mayor would be in any position to undo a Metrolinx project?

Just the hope that the next mayor won't be stupidly obsessed with LRT like Miller is.

And I think that Metrolinx would be happy as a clam to have a Sheppard Subway to STC instead of the Sheppard East LRT. It's not really their project; they basically integrated all of the requested MoveOntario 2020 projects into their RTP. If you ask me, this was a show of just a tiny bit of laziness on their part, but I think that Metrolinx disagrees with the SE LRT just as much as many of us here.

 

[Whoaccio]

Speaking of Metrolinx, where the hell are they? Weren't they designed to avoid the grab bag approach to transit planning in the first place? Since they had the board change to "de-politicize" things not much seems to have happened.

 

[DavidH]

And I think that Metrolinx would be happy as a clam to have a Sheppard Subway to STC instead of the Sheppard East LRT. It's not really their project; they basically integrated all of the requested MoveOntario 2020 projects into their RTP. If you ask me, this was a show of just a tiny bit of laziness on their part, but I think that Metrolinx disagrees with the SE LRT just as much as many of us here.

It's hard to say. At any rate, it's their plan, and their project in terms of ownership, so any changes would have to go through them. Then, there's the funding issue. Certainly a new mayor could make a pitch to them, but it would be out of the mayor's hands from that point.

Speaking of Metrolinx, where the hell are they? Weren't they designed to avoid the grab bag approach to transit planning in the first place? Since they had the board change to "de-politicize" things not much seems to have happened.

I think lots is going on but the new board is much less public than the old board. Also, keep in mind that they are out of the RTP planning mode and into the implementation mode.

And yes, they were supposed to avoid the grab bag approach, and I'm as disappointed with the RTP as anyone else here. I just don't think that assumptions that a new mayor will be able to change planned routes are realistic.

 

[W. K. Lis]

What makes you think that a new mayor would be in any position to undo a Metrolinx project?

Any mayor has only ONE vote out of 45 votes on council. He or she may have an executive, but still needs to get 22 others to agree with him or her on the final vote (unless absent at voting time, of course).

 

[Rainforest]

The position of a new mayor will matter, although other issues will be important as well (funding first of all).

...
But what I'd do is this:

-The Morningside Carhouse gets built.
...
-SE LRT gets cancelled for Sheppard Extension to STC.
-SRT extension cancelled, replaced by B-D extension to STC

Those are reasonable options. But the chance of the B-D extension will depend on how much work will be done already on the existing Kennedy - STC guideway. Once a substantial investment is made there, they will be unlikely to abandon it and opt for the subway extension.

-Scarborough-Malvern LRT still on the table, now going to be extended to Malvern Town Centre instead of the SRT.

IMO, that particular route would be too indirect. Nobody will want to board in Malvern and spend 35 min travelling around all of Scarborough to get to Kennedy, when they can board a bus to STC subway terminus and be there in less than 15 min.

An LRT line from Malvern Centre should head to the closest subway station, which would be STC in this layout.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Any mayor has only ONE vote out of 45 votes on council. He or she may have an executive, but still needs to get 22 others to agree with him or her on the final vote (unless absent at voting time, of course).

Funny that those magic 22 votes would be needed to change anything...they certainly didn't come into play when the "plan" was first created.

 

[kEiThZ]

Thought some of you might be interested in this presentation:

http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/public_consult/tmp/lrt/jun_19/toronto_mitch_stambler.wmv

Derived from this site:

http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/public_consult/tmp/lrt/

EDIT: The second site has his attached power point so you can see the pics he is referring to.

 

[CDL.TO]

Thought some of you might be interested in this presentation:

http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/public_consult/tmp/lrt/jun_19/toronto_mitch_stambler.wmv

Thanks for posting, Keithz.

That was frustrating to watch.

"Here's a photo of a subway station, as you can see here."
Uhh, no... I cannot see. Will someone move the dang camera so I can actually see what he is talking about?!?

Overall, not much new here. The same stuff we have been hearing for the past three years.

One new thing that I haven't heard from the TTC before. He says that the TTC has decided not to build any grade separations because "the effect of these portals on the urban streetscape and the pedestrian environment is too great and too detrimental." Tunnel portals are "big, ugly, massive, and you can't get from one side of the street to the other."

That seems pretty ridiculous to me. Can't say that I've ever found it difficult to get around the Spadina, Queen's Quay, or St. Clair tunnel portals.

 

[kEiThZ]

I think the presentation does give insight into some of the rationale behind TC, aside from the obvious cost issue. The real irony here is that this presentation was given to Ottawa planners who are currently developing their first light rail system that will be fully segregated and have a third of its stations underground in a tunnel. So Ottawa is essentially building a mini-subway while Toronto is moving away from HRT in general.

I found his argument about the relative size of the city baffling too. Yes, we know Toronto is not Manhattan or Hong Kong. But to argue that Toronto's lack of size rules out subways automatically is a little ridiculous. Has he seen how crowded the subways are? It's not like Toronto's subways are not popular (well maybe the Sheppard line).

 

[rbt]

It's not like Toronto's subways are not popular (well maybe the Sheppard line).

These statements about Sheppard repeated frequently by press the population and eventually politicians are what killed subway expansion in Toronto.

Sheppards ridership would be considered an over-whelming success in Chicago, New York, LA, Washington, etc. Many of those cities have lines they value with less ridership (passengers per station). Even Bessarian isn't all that bad off -- bad for Toronto, 3rd quartile for North America.

If we as a population become willing to subsidize subway operations for a decade or two after installation, we will begin building subways again. If we expect them to be full on opening day, there will never be a new subway in Toronto sponsored by Torontonians.

 

[Second_in_pie]

These statements about Sheppard repeated frequently by press the population and eventually politicians are what killed subway expansion in Toronto.

Sheppards ridership would be considered an over-whelming success in Chicago, New York, LA, Washington, etc. Many of those cities have lines they value with less ridership (passengers per station). Even Bessarian isn't all that bad off -- bad for Toronto, 3rd quartile for North America.

If we as a population become willing to subsidize subway operations for a decade or two after installation, we will begin building subways again. If we expect them to be full on opening day, there will never be a new subway in Toronto sponsored by Torontonians.

Totally agree with you there.

Of course, Sheppard would probably be a bit better off if it was actually complete. The line would probably be breaking even about now if it connected to either STC or Downsview. But for a Stubway to Nowhere, it's doing great!

 

[waterloowarrior]

I think the presentation does give insight into some of the rationale behind TC, aside from the obvious cost issue. The real irony here is that this presentation was given to Ottawa planners who are currently developing their first light rail system that will be fully segregated and have a third of its stations underground in a tunnel. So Ottawa is essentially building a mini-subway while Toronto is moving away from HRT in general.

Yeah it's interesting that at the ottawa forum Alstom recommended Ottawa develop an automated metro system and Bombardier seemed to have quite a bit on their automated system. I believe Ottawa will be further considering technologies in the fall.

here's the graphs the two manufacturers had for capacity and the ttc's graph.

bombardier

ttc

 

[Voltz]

Thanks for posting, Keithz.

That was frustrating to watch.

"Here's a photo of a subway station, as you can see here."
Uhh, no... I cannot see. Will someone move the dang camera so I can actually see what he is talking about?!?

Overall, not much new here. The same stuff we have been hearing for the past three years.

One new thing that I haven't heard from the TTC before. He says that the TTC has decided not to build any grade separations because "the effect of these portals on the urban streetscape and the pedestrian environment is too great and too detrimental." Tunnel portals are "big, ugly, massive, and you can't get from one side of the street to the other."

That seems pretty ridiculous to me. Can't say that I've ever found it difficult to get around the Spadina, Queen's Quay, or St. Clair tunnel portals.

This appears to be the presentation he was referring to
http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/public_consult/tmp/lrt/toronto_en.pdf

(It's a 25 MB PDF)

 

[CDL.TO]

This appears to be the presentation he was referring to
http://www.ottawa.ca/residents/public_consult/tmp/lrt/toronto_en.pdf

(It's a 25 MB PDF)

Thanks, Voltz.

 

[kEiThZ]

These statements about Sheppard repeated frequently by press the population and eventually politicians are what killed subway expansion in Toronto.

Didn't mean to suggest that the line was not useful. I was merely pointing out that the line is not as popular as the others. You are right, of course, in suggesting that by any international standard, the Sheppard line would be extremely successful. However, because the TTC judges the line by Toronto standards, it of course considers it to be less than successful.