[rbt]

Totally agree with you there.

Of course, Sheppard would probably be a bit better off if it was actually complete. The line would probably be breaking even about now if it connected to either STC or Downsview. But for a Stubway to Nowhere, it's doing great!

Sure, but it is tagged as a white elephant by the general population. How could any politician justify putting more money into a white elephant?

 

[rbt]

However, because the TTC judges the line by Toronto standards, it of course considers it to be less than successful.

This has to do with general opinion of the media and by extension the public about the line, not the TTC. We, the population of Toronto, very strongly indicated in 2003 through about 2005 that Sheppard was a white elephant. You don't need to go father than posts on this forum during that time period to see this.

TTC staff justify pretty much anything if you give them the rules to operate by, and politicians do.


To everybody who wants subway expansion in Toronto (other than the DRL) you need to prove beyond any doubt in a public manner (via Star, Post, etc.) that Sheppard is a success worth repeating.

 

[Ansem]

This has to do with general opinion of the media and by extension the public about the line, not the TTC. We, the population of Toronto, very strongly indicated in 2003 through about 2005 that Sheppard was a white elephant. You don't need to go father than posts on this forum during that time period to see this.

TTC staff justify pretty much anything if you give them the rules to operate by, and politicians do.


To everybody who wants subway expansion in Toronto (other than the DRL) you need to prove beyond any doubt in a public manner (via Star, Post, etc.) that Sheppard is a success worth repeating.

I remember that after each time the government of Onatrio and the city of Toronto were anouncing new founding for the LRT lines, most of the comments posted by the readers were saying that this was a waste of money and a city like Toronto needed much more subways than LRT.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Sheppard is as busy as Madrid's overall subway system, and they have subways coming out their ears. For an intensely devleoped and well-travelled corridor like Sheppard, a subway line was the right option...the only thing that went wrong was that only a fraction of the line was built, and Miller is doing his damnedest to make sure it never gets finished. The EA is quite clear that a billion dollars will be spent and service will not be measurably improved, let alone noticeably improved. Way to drive this city into the ground!

Sure, but it is tagged as a white elephant by the general population. How could any politician justify putting more money into a white elephant?

Actually, it's been tagged a white elephant by 3 politicians, 3 journalists, and even then only in the context of Mel Lastman's dubious legacy. Maybe add 3 people on the internet who repeat what the first 6 have said. If any other mayor built Sheppard, it would be lauded. The other 99.99% of the city thinks it's great, including everyone that uses it.

 

[kEiThZ]

I remember that after each time the government of Onatrio and the city of Toronto were anouncing new founding for the LRT lines, most of the comments posted by the readers were saying that this was a waste of money and a city like Toronto needed much more subways than LRT.

Agreed. I think if you talk to the average Torontonian they'd prefer subways to light rail any day. In no small part, fair or not, because the image of light rail that Torontonians have is of slow streetcars. However, I really think the LRT agenda has been driven by a few select politicians (Miller, Giambrone) and some staff at the TTC who are convinced that LRT represents a new paradigm.

 

[lead82]

it is perceived as a white elephant because it doesnt go far enough east or west. How do we fix this? Well we build the SELRT instead of extending the line.

 

[kEiThZ]

What is hilariously ironic in the Ottawa presentation is when Mitch Stambler suggests to Alain Mercier to re-check his ridership forecasts because if 10-15k is right then they should be building subways! Then he goes on to say that he's pretty sure all the Transit City corridors are below that, and that they have checked their numbers over and over again. Why don't they release those numbers and their methodology then?

Watch the panel discussion for details.

 

[Ansem]

Sheppard is as busy as Madrid's overall subway system, and they have subways coming out their ears. For an intensely devleoped and well-travelled corridor like Sheppard, a subway line was the right option...the only thing that went wrong was that only a fraction of the line was built, and Miller is doing his damnedest to make sure it never gets finished. The EA is quite clear that a billion dollars will be spent and service will not be measurably improved, let alone noticeably improved. Way to drive this city into the ground!

You don't even need to go to MAdrid.

If you take all of chicago's lines, The Sheppard line beats 5 of their line. Sheppard has better ridership than lines that are 20 KM long with 20 station link downtown...(with only 5 stations and 5 KM, nowhere near Downtown.)

Sheppad Jane to Scarborough Center or the Future SRT Sheppard east station would climb even hire than some of Chicago's busiest line.

I use Chicago because its more similar to Toronto.

I don't worry about MIller because the strike and the tax increase will end his reign and he has many opponents who beleive in subways.

 

[Second_in_pie]

I don't worry about MIller because the strike and the tax increase will end his reign and he has many opponents who beleive in subways.

The only thing that worry about is that Transit City will be too far along to change. I'm almost positive that Miller's getting booted out, but whether that will lead to more subways, I'm not so sure. I certainly hope for it, but I still see a big possibility that things like the SE LRT will be too far ahead to cancel.

 

[Ansem]

The only thing that worry about is that Transit City will be too far along to change. I'm almost positive that Miller's getting booted out, but whether that will lead to more subways, I'm not so sure. I certainly hope for it, but I still see a big possibility that things like the SE LRT will be too far ahead to cancel.

In a year, they might have reached SRT future Sheppard East Station(markham). If they started from Don Mills, you would be right but since they'll be starting at morningside, by the time we get a new mayor, they could combine the Sheppard East LRT with the Malvern LRT finish Sheppard from Don MIlls to Sheppard East.

I kind of doubt that Miller's opponent won't suggest the subway instead. In my politic class, we learn that politician are driven to be in power and that is the main (almost only goal) of a political party. If someone wants to win North York and Scarborough, announcing the subway is a sure win, we all know the businesses on SHeppard east are furious over the LRT.

The city can still turn around the project, not cancel it nor should they. Sheppard East LRT is a good idea...East of Scarborough Center if combined with Malvern. Even if the line was funded by the government, the city could have chosen subway technology to Consumers if they wanted to. (lack of political will)

All we need is to vote for a candidate that will be pro-subway. As far as I'm concern, TRansit city is great, except Sheppard East and Eglinton to a certain extend althought the underground part is a good compromise with the no left turn intersections...which SHeppard east lack.

1 Billions for an extra 10 KM/H????
I'll find the other billion and build the SHeppard subway instead. (if I was mayor)
isn't what the TTC said about Bloor-Yonge renovation???

THey would rather add another billion and have the DRL instead of spending a billion to bebuild the station? It's not abount funding, not about subway standards created by clueless politician, it's political will.

That's why Miller and Giambrone needs to be out of city hall.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

It's not an extra 10km/hr, it's more like 2km/hr. Perhaps 3km/hr west of Agincourt, but then you have to factor in reduced frequencies.

 

[tkip]

Wtf?

"We can manufacture it directly out of the air."
This comment completely baffles me. How does one get oil directly from the air when its a resource located underground and has to be drilled?
Did I miss something.......

 

[rbt]

"We can manufacture it directly out of the air."
This comment completely baffles me. How does one get oil directly from the air when its a resource located underground and has to be drilled?
Did I miss something.......

It is cheap to get from underground. It can, however, be manufactured from a pretty large number of simple source materials (carbon dioxide being one ingredient) for a cost. You begin treating oil like a battery just as hydrogen could be rather than the energy source. Thermal depolymerization is one of the more popular methods for manufacturing oil ($120 or so per barrel); manufacture from the air is probably closer to $300pb.

Price wise it can work out better than hydrogen simply because we know how to handle and transport the material easily. Hydrogen is a royal pain in the ass to keep contained or pipeline.

Anyway, my point was that we will never run out of oil BUT gasoline at the pump might go past $10 per litre if we cannot pull it out of the ground.

 

[Rainforest]

... they could combine the Sheppard East LRT with the Malvern LRT finish Sheppard from Don MIlls to Sheppard East.

This is all hypothetical at this point - but in case Sheppard subway extension is funded, would you rather tilt it south and terminate at Scarborough Centre, or stay on Sheppard and terminate at Markham Rd subway / SRT / LRT interchange?

North of Sheppard between McCowan and Markham Rd are low-density industrial lands, will they ever generate ridership that justifies a subway?

That's why Miller and Giambrone needs to be out of city hall.

Note that there is no reason for Giambrone to be defeated. Unlike Miller, Giambrone is not responsible for the strike / garbage affair, and his constituents will not hold him to that.

 

[kEiThZ]

This is all hypothetical at this point - but in case Sheppard subway extension is funded, would you rather tilt it south and terminate at Scarborough Centre, or stay on Sheppard and terminate at Markham Rd subway / SRT / LRT interchange?

I still think the original plan is best. But at minimum the line should end at Agincourt GO.

North of Sheppard between McCowan and Markham Rd are low-density industrial lands, will they ever generate ridership that justifies a subway?

Those lands, particularly the warehouse areas along Sheppard offer significant potential for redevelopment if rezoned. The offer real potential to build residential buildings with retail at the bottom...that mixed use development that everyone keeps dreaming about.

Note that there is no reason for Giambrone to be defeated. Unlike Miller, Giambrone is not responsible for the strike / garbage affair, and his constituents will not hold him to that.

Even Miller won't be defeated over the strike. I say that and I am no fan of Miller. It'll be forgotten by the time the eleciton rolls around. His potential fall would occur only if the province does not bail him out and forces him to really raise taxes. The reality is that municipal elections have exceptionally low turnout. There's a few residents who vote passionately and they tend to be rather to the left (which these days is dominated by euro streetcar fans at who dream of avenuization). If participation was higher in the suburbs, you'd have significantly more political support for subways and other heavy rail (GO). Instead, the suburbs tend to be dominated by newer immigrants who often don't understand what the municipal government does and how much power they have as voters.