GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
"Nice transit plan you got here - sure would be a shame if something were to happen to it."
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- Thread starter 299 bloor call control.
- Start date
Rainforest
Senior Member
Truncated Finch West LRT route does not make much sence. It won't serve riders going from Etobicoke to Yonge, from Yonge subway to Humber College, or from Yonge to York U. Those who travel from Etobicoke to Finch West subway, can be served by an express bus from Humber to Finch West (and to Yonge).
Either build all of Finch West at once, or defer all of it until it can be fully funded. We don't need one more stubway, this time with LRT technology.
Perhaps some funding could be transferred from Finch to SLRT, so it can reach Malvern Centre rather than get truncated at Sheppard / Progress.
Furthermore, if Eglinton is truncated and is no longer Crosstown, the case for full-fledged subway from Jane to Don Mills (with enhanced bus service from Don Mills to Kennedy and further east) gets much stronger.
Subway could add a lot of reserve capacity for no extra cost, or perhaps even be a little cheaper than tunneled LRT. Some cost saving can be expected from cheaper cars (subway cars cost a lot less than LRT cars of similar capacity), from smaller tunnel (no overhead power), and from the use of Wilson yard instead of building a new one.
Either build all of Finch West at once, or defer all of it until it can be fully funded. We don't need one more stubway, this time with LRT technology.
Perhaps some funding could be transferred from Finch to SLRT, so it can reach Malvern Centre rather than get truncated at Sheppard / Progress.
Furthermore, if Eglinton is truncated and is no longer Crosstown, the case for full-fledged subway from Jane to Don Mills (with enhanced bus service from Don Mills to Kennedy and further east) gets much stronger.
Subway could add a lot of reserve capacity for no extra cost, or perhaps even be a little cheaper than tunneled LRT. Some cost saving can be expected from cheaper cars (subway cars cost a lot less than LRT cars of similar capacity), from smaller tunnel (no overhead power), and from the use of Wilson yard instead of building a new one.
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GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
I sort of agree that maybe we should look at just doing Eglinton at subway if they're going to keep cutting it back, but I do think we have to look at the operating costs very closely. How much more expensive would annual operating costs be for a subway versus LRT?
Since the province seems unwilling to resume their share of transit operating funding, the TTC has to watch its operating budget very closely or fares are going to skyrocket.
Since the province seems unwilling to resume their share of transit operating funding, the TTC has to watch its operating budget very closely or fares are going to skyrocket.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Subway would be somewhat more expensive to operate, because subway stations are manned, while Eglinton LRT stations are expected to be un-manned. But does that make for a large difference overall?
Another thought. What if someone gets attacked and hurt on one of the un-manned Eglinton LRT stations at night, and then TTC gets hit with a hefty lawsuit for not providing security? Could that offset the operational cost saving?
Also, Eglinton subway might provide a shortcut from Wilson yard to Yonge subway, and hence reduce the Yonge's operational costs a bit.
kettal
Banned
There will need to be at least a roaming security guard going from station to station.
Also, if it's being stubbed, I don't imagine there being any capacity issue...
Also, if it's being stubbed, I don't imagine there being any capacity issue...
kEiThZ
Superstar
Maybe they didn't bank on the total cost of the plan ballooning from $6 billion to $15 billion.
Maybe they didn't bank on a global recession derailing provincial revenues.
Maybe they didn't bank on the public being upset about the deficit.
etc.
It's not all the province's fault.
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
6 billion for 7 lines changed to 8 billion for 4 lines (which happened in consultation with the province's new transit agency who asked for extensions) and now 4 billion for... we'll see.
The Province's biggest mistake was probably thinking that the federal government would pay for some of MoveOntario. I guess they couldn't have imagined that Harper would be in power for so long.
The Province's biggest mistake was probably thinking that the federal government would pay for some of MoveOntario. I guess they couldn't have imagined that Harper would be in power for so long.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Agreed. This kind of bullying is uncalled for. If the province has issues with TC, they should come clean and lay them out there.
nfitz
Superstar
... what, you expect Ignatieff to pay for local transit? They guy wouldn't recognize a city bus if it hit him. Nor would his inner circle!
kettal
Banned
The provincial government decided to defer any discussions on transit revenue schemes until 2013, then they complain the cupboard is bare. It is a fine tale of incompetence.
kEiThZ
Superstar
It was a stupid assumption. I doubt the Liberals would have been significantly better either. They didn't pitch into the Sheppard subway, being built when times were decent. What makes anybody think that the federal government (of any stripe) will pitch in now? Steve or no Steve.
The province has to take the lead on transit. And the province and municipalities have to bite the bullet and raise taxes (and make some cuts elsewhere) to get the money they need to build transit. Constantly praying for federal intervention is a useless strategy. I really wish McGuinty had the balls to raise the sales tax by 2% and take up the room made by the cut....just like the Nova Scotians.
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kEiThZ
Superstar
Fair enough. And I am disappointed Metrolinx wasn't more empowered. But what would you have the province do when they set out with a budget and the costs of these proposed lines ballooned? They haven't even put a shovel in the ground and per km costs have dobuled. Did anybody really expect the province to stand by and say or do absolutely nothing?
nfitz
Superstar
It is indeed. The backtracking by the Liberals since Smitherman and Bryant left cabinet is amazing.
What is really amazing is is last week the wrote a letter to the city noting that they would have all the previously funded Transit City lines constructed by 2020 despite the cuts. And they managed to break that promise only one week later; killing over 20-km completely, and delaying some of the remaining parts of Eglinton until 2022.
I really have to wonder just what has happened in Queen's Park for them to have become so grossly incompetent of late! I've never seen a government become so utterly wishy-washy so quickly before.
Rainforest
Senior Member
Surely, capacity will not be an issue for the relatively short Jane - Don Mills route. LRT will suffice in terms of capacity.
But there is a possibility that capacity will be needed in long term if the line is extended, and/or if it gets a lot of feeders. Long-term ridership projections cannot be fully reliable, since they are based on certain assumptions about the demographics, land use, other elements of the network etc; and those can change unexpectedly.
So, if spare capacity can be build for no extra cost, it is wise to do so.
kEiThZ
Superstar
Simple. They are reading the tea leaves. Support for Transit City is eroding. And they know it. So they are looking to save a few bucks on the backs of Toronto transit patrons. What's needed are the political candidates who present strong alternatives to Transit City (as it is presently). Somebody needs to claim the money on the table and say they need it for transit. There needs to be political support to maintain the level of funding regardless of how the plans are jigged.
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