[LAz]

I would like to see more information on the midtown GO line.

We ought to be cheering for destruction of go lines, not the creation of them.
The Go is a simple commuter rail thing. It encourages sprawl and helps divert funds and development away from toronto.


Toronto became a first class city by the 1980s. We were the best in north america. This was because of Metro Toronto, the regional government that coordinated planning. But as population increased Metro did not, thus Toronto got fucked by the suburbs as they stole industry and jobs, as well as people. No longer can we have real planning until we clamp down on the suburbs that decided to kill toronto via the american model of city destruction. They no longer allow for high density development along proposed subway lines or planned places of industry. Industry goes where the taxes are cheaper... they stole that from our city.

Hence we must hate GO and the suburbs outside of what is today toronto. They're the enemy to progress. They are what makes us more american - hence failure, considering what a disaster american municipal regions are.

 

[ssiguy2]

BTW...........................when is Ford going to be enlightening the proletariats on his transit policy?

 

[kettal]

I thought that ssiguy was saying that we shouldn't make a similar mistake to Vancouver and build lines which are going to be over capacity in 40 years. To which kettal said that it wasn't because of capacity but because the cars aren't made anymore (which to me, ignoring ssiguy's point about capacity means he doesn't think it's an issue to take into account.).

Go back and read it again, then. You clearly misinterpreted it the first time.

 

[Second_in_pie]

Ah. My bad. I totally misunderstood the context of the second paragraph.

 

[The Mad Navigator]

He can talk behind our backs all he wants. If he has something to say to us, he can come here. No point in us trying to make comments on his website when he'll just delete any comments he doesn't like anyway.

Just keep on drinking it!

 

[The Mad Navigator]

We ought to be cheering for destruction of go lines, not the creation of them.
The Go is a simple commuter rail thing. It encourages sprawl and helps divert funds and development away from toronto.


Toronto became a first class city by the 1980s. We were the best in north america. This was because of Metro Toronto, the regional government that coordinated planning. But as population increased Metro did not, thus Toronto got fucked by the suburbs as they stole industry and jobs, as well as people. No longer can we have real planning until we clamp down on the suburbs that decided to kill toronto via the american model of city destruction. They no longer allow for high density development along proposed subway lines or planned places of industry. Industry goes where the taxes are cheaper... they stole that from our city.

Hence we must hate GO and the suburbs outside of what is today toronto. They're the enemy to progress. They are what makes us more american - hence failure, considering what a disaster american municipal regions are.

Idiocy and Ignorance, together at last!

 

[waterloowarrior]

We ought to be cheering for destruction of go lines, not the creation of them.
The Go is a simple commuter rail thing. It encourages sprawl and helps divert funds and development away from toronto.


Toronto became a first class city by the 1980s. We were the best in north america. This was because of Metro Toronto, the regional government that coordinated planning. But as population increased Metro did not, thus Toronto got fucked by the suburbs as they stole industry and jobs, as well as people. No longer can we have real planning until we clamp down on the suburbs that decided to kill toronto via the american model of city destruction. They no longer allow for high density development along proposed subway lines or planned places of industry. Industry goes where the taxes are cheaper... they stole that from our city.

Hence we must hate GO and the suburbs outside of what is today toronto. They're the enemy to progress. They are what makes us more american - hence failure, considering what a disaster american municipal regions are.

miketoronto?

 

[LAz]

Idiocy and Ignorance, together at last!

There is absolutely nothing ignorant about that. You can look at countless real experts in sustainable development for livable cities, be it vuchic or cervero, or others...

...the points are clear, that since the 1980s toronto has gone down the wrong path. This path has produced a vienna that is surrounded by phoenix. That is disgusting. What good is having one of the most vibrant downtowns if what surrounds it is more or less an american bullshit suburb, like phoenix???




The Metropolitan Toronto regional government worked miracles in helping coordinate development with rapid transit. In this sense the subway influenced development more so than in any other city in north america. However, since the 1980s this has not been possible thanks to unplanned growth in the suburban wastelands. This is the problem. It is a serious problem. To discard it like you do is seriously disgusting and disturbing.



edit: this is one of the key problems here in planning stuff. Much is lost if the landuse is not coordinated with planning. What we get is a stupid system like San Fran's BART. I do not want to see elements of bart in toronto. We do not have to build the subway in order to attract the higher densities around the stations - as has been successful along sheppard - instead these things should be done congruently, not separately. This was so apparent in the first phase of development, when 90% of newly built office space was within a 5 minute walk from the subway.

The suburbs have to be identified and labeled as a menace that is a problem for sustainable urban growth. They are a problem for the future. Ignoring this will lead to the catastrophic situation that we see in american cities, which are for the most part failures - proof is their very low ranks on lists for livability.

 

[Second_in_pie]

LAz, the suburbs are a problem. But you can't just make them go away. Letting the suburbs die off like a reverse Detroit wouldn't be healthy at all. I really dislike it when people criticize Go for apparently encouraging sprawl. Would you rather we build the Spadina expressway and extend the 400 into Downtown to accommodate all those Go riders that you think we should cut loose? Somehow, I doubt it. You have to realize that like it or not, the suburbs are part of what Toronto is and we have to accept that. But is that a bad thing? The city would still be in a pretty bad shape if you just take into account the sprawl that is in Toronto proper.

You can bitch all you want about how the suburbs have ruined the city, or you could propose solutions. Why don't we just stop all the sprawl in the GTA, and put all our growth into bringing that Vienna throughout the entire region? Since The urban boundaries of the GTA aren't gonna be getting any smaller, so why not make dense avenues and little downtowns so that everyone in the GTA is 2km away from a little bit of Vienna (as you say.) Go is really, really the best way to accomplish that. If anything, we should be sinking all of our money into getting Go service up to regional levels throughout the GTA.

 

[SlickFranky]

There is absolutely nothing ignorant about that. You can look at countless real experts in sustainable development for livable cities, be it vuchic or cervero, or others...

...the points are clear, that since the 1980s toronto has gone down the wrong path. This path has produced a vienna that is surrounded by phoenix. That is disgusting. What good is having one of the most vibrant downtowns if what surrounds it is more or less an american bullshit suburb, like phoenix???




The Metropolitan Toronto regional government worked miracles in helping coordinate development with rapid transit. In this sense the subway influenced development more so than in any other city in north america. However, since the 1980s this has not been possible thanks to unplanned growth in the suburban wastelands. This is the problem. It is a serious problem. To discard it like you do is seriously disgusting and disturbing.



edit: this is one of the key problems here in planning stuff. Much is lost if the landuse is not coordinated with planning. What we get is a stupid system like San Fran's BART. I do not want to see elements of bart in toronto. We do not have to build the subway in order to attract the higher densities around the stations - as has been successful along sheppard - instead these things should be done congruently, not separately. This was so apparent in the first phase of development, when 90% of newly built office space was within a 5 minute walk from the subway.

The suburbs have to be identified and labeled as a menace that is a problem for sustainable urban growth. They are a problem for the future. Ignoring this will lead to the catastrophic situation that we see in american cities, which are for the most part failures - proof is their very low ranks on lists for livability.

What does any of that have to do with the midtown GO line? It would run as a crosstown express through midtown, not a commuter line. And it's not happening anytime soon anyway.

As far as GO's commuter service...it's not really causing the sprawl. At worst, one could argue it's encouraging sprawl, or making the existing sprawl slightly more sustainable...and that's why GO get's the lowest level of subsidy of any transit service in the western hemisphere. We can't really do anything more, since the sprawl is due to 905 planning/zoning which is outside our jurisdiction.

 

[LAz]

But you can't just make them go away.

And I never said that.
I simply stated what a problem they are.

That being said, we must do what we can to prevent this menace from getting bigger.

Would you rather we build the Spadina expressway and extend the 400 into Downtown to accommodate all those Go riders that you think we should cut loose? Somehow, I doubt it.

I do not like comparing some bad with something worse in order to justify something bad.

Why don't we just stop all the sprawl in the GTA, and put all our growth into bringing that Vienna throughout the entire region?

To make everything a vienna would mean that we will have viennas separated by lots of space. There's too much area to make it all viennas. Way too much area. If vaughan were to be its vienna, we would have to clear miles of km between it and toronto's CBD... only that way would we get concentrations high enough.
Making everything a vienna would only exacerbate the problem.
And if we did that there is no doubt that some would say "lets do that by putting another expressway in".

At worst, one could argue it's encouraging sprawl, or making the existing sprawl slightly more sustainable.

This is exactly the problem, we're throwing out lifelines to the monstrosities.

since the sprawl is due to 905 planning/zoning which is outside our jurisdiction

Then expand the metrpolitan toronto regional government. Oh shit, whoops, the monstrosities do not want to be limited, because their short term profits are more important than sustainable solutions. For that, they deserve to perish.
American exurbs, the suburbs beyond the suburbs are what started this recent financial crisis. The high price of oil helped tip those houses in the middle of nowhere into foreclosure, triggering the banking crisis. If we could only sustain high prices of petrol, in order to put some sort of ceiling on these monstrosities... that is all that can be done in my opinion. Petrol is the food that keeps their whole act going... raise the price and we'll see the peons flocking back to the city.

 

[Ervin]

LAZ, your comments are idiotic because you're saying that GO is to blame for Toronto's suburbs, which is just plain retarded. GO doesn't encourage shit, if people want to live in suburbs, they will go there themselves, they don't need a rail line to give them permission. Toronto's suburbs have grown long before GO came around, and the only thing to blame for that are cars. All GO does is remove cars from the streets and give a more economically and environmentally friendly way of travel. Removing GO won't bring people back to the urban areas, it will only make them travel on their cars more and jam the freeways.

Ignorance and idiocity together indeed.

 

[Second_in_pie]

To make everything a vienna would mean that we will have viennas separated by lots of space. There's too much area to make it all viennas. Way too much area. If vaughan were to be its vienna, we would have to clear miles of km between it and toronto's CBD... only that way would we get concentrations high enough.
Making everything a vienna would only exacerbate the problem.
And if we did that there is no doubt that some would say "lets do that by putting another expressway in".

Yeah, I don't get it. What's the problem? That's definitely a better solution than focusing on downtown Toronto and leaving people in the suburbs to rot.

This is exactly the problem, we're throwing out lifelines to the monstrosities.

Right. So as a solution, we should force them all to drive everywhere! Yeah, that'll make them so mad!

Then expand the metrpolitan toronto regional government. Oh shit, whoops, the monstrosities do not want to be limited, because their short term profits are more important than sustainable solutions. For that, they deserve to perish.
American exurbs, the suburbs beyond the suburbs are what started this recent financial crisis. The high price of oil helped tip those houses in the middle of nowhere into foreclosure, triggering the banking crisis. If we could only sustain high prices of petrol, in order to put some sort of ceiling on these monstrosities... that is all that can be done in my opinion. Petrol is the food that keeps their whole act going... raise the price and we'll see the peons flocking back to the city.

Two big fallacies right here. Firstly, it's not like Toronto took a big step on suburbanization (as can be seen by Toronto oh so wonderfully being fully developed.) Sorry, but I don't get your logic that Metropolitan Toronto did anything substantial to combat sprawl.
Secondly, there's a good reason why people in the suburbs don't want to become under the jurisdiction of a larger government: they want to be able to think for themselves. Having control as 1/250k th of a population vs 1/5500k th of a population is a significantly better thing, especially since 500k out of that 550k could really care less what happens in your area. Would you feel angry if people in Chicago got to decide what was happening in Toronto? Yeah, didn't think so.

 

[Dan416]

Personally I love GO and rarely take TTC. Why would I TTC up from Union when I can just walk. But I'm also a cheap bastard.

 

[LAz]

AZ, your comments are idiotic because you're saying that GO is to blame for Toronto's suburbs, which is just plain retarded.

Your conclusion is retarded. GO is bad because it helps aid the suburbs. Go did not create the suburbs, nor will the suburbs disappear if Go disappears.

hat's definitely a better solution than focusing on downtown Toronto and leaving people in the suburbs to rot.

People left to go to the suburbs so that the city would rot. We need to stop giving them handouts by enhancing their life in the suburbs. They should be responsible for the consequences of choosing to live so far away, and one way to do that is to not enhance Go.

So as a solution, we should force them all to drive everywhere! Yeah, that'll make them so mad!

Well there are two possibilities. To not enhance service to their exurbs. Or to eliminate the service. Both are better than to enhance service to them. They should pay for their decision to live so far from the central business district. Hm, raising the fee for using the Go train might just do the trick.

Sorry, but I don't get your logic that Metropolitan Toronto did anything substantial to combat sprawl.

In the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s MT helped in coordinating development with rapid transit. This has resulted in Toronto being one of the most livable cities in north america. It was coordinated land use planning. MT had the authority to veto certain construction. By the 1980s population was growing outside of where MT had authority. The unplanned suburbs outside of what is today toronto capitalized by taking industry and people out of the city. Cheaper taxes and cheaper homes, such standard stuff that killed american cities.

Secondly, there's a good reason why people in the suburbs don't want to become under the jurisdiction of a larger government: they want to be able to think for themselves.

This is the logic that is used against planning. Lets not plan. Lets let the private sector do it all, they know best. This is where what you have said comes from, this want to not be restrained by some higher planning agency.
The most livable cities in the world had strong regional governments. Arguably the best place for transit on the world is stockholm. All their suburbs were under the metropolitan government. It is a big shame that not all of toronto's were.

Thinking for oneself is one thing. But when that impairs the neighboring village/town then that is another. Thinking for oneself has resulted in short term profits- at the expense of long term problems.
No thanks.

Would you feel angry if people in Chicago got to decide what was happening in Toronto?

If Toronto had 100,000 people and was right beside Chicago, then yes, of course that there should be a regional government to help integrate stuff. Heck, chicago should just gobble up toronto if that were the case. Instead the chicagoland has no regional government. But instead it is proud to have the most suburbs out of any metropolitan area in the world - over 300 - and along with that has the most divisions of decision making - something what illinois is very notorious for.


edit/add:

it's not like Toronto took a big step on suburbanization

It took a very big step on suburbanization in the 1980s and 1990s. Dunno about the 2000s, but I think so for that too. What is the result - TTC ridership falling by a quarter between 1988 and 1996.