[nfitz]

On a more serious note. As illustrated by you and Justin there are areas in the world that use shorter than usual subway trains, and they are considered successfull. So using that as a reason for calling Sheppard E a failure is asinine.

What on earth are you talking about?

I've never once called the Sheppard East subway a failure, and in a previous post I used the passengers/km data to prove otherwise. Why do you think I was advocating for it's extension to Victoria Park?

Why do you make such absurd personal attacks with absolutely no basis?

 

[The Mad Navigator]

I'm sorry that you missed the train and that it made you feel sad. Maybe we can sit you and a subway train down in a room together and you can work out your differences.

On a more serious note. As illustrated by you and Justin there are areas in the world that use shorter than usual subway trains, and they are considered successfull. So using that as a reason for calling Sheppard E a failure is asinine.

It's great to know that you consider large scale inefficiencies as success stories!

 

[Justin10000]

I'm sorry that you missed the train and that it made you feel sad. Maybe we can sit you and a subway train down in a room together and you can work out your differences.

On a more serious note. As illustrated by you and Justin there are areas in the world that use shorter than usual subway trains, and they are considered successfull. So using that as a reason for calling Sheppard E a failure is asinine.

I never said Sheppard was a failure, but I am not going to call it a success just because of ridership.

 

[gweed123]

I never said Sheppard was a failure, but I am not going to call it a success just because of ridership.

What other criteria would you use then?

 

[LAz]

What subway runs a shortened trains over 5km, where the intermediate stations are barely used? There is no line comparable to the Sheppard, and comparing it to other lines still will not justify it's construction.

1 Billion for a 5km line to a mall is not a good investment, nor can be considered a sucess.

Bullocks. There is only one station there that gets quite low rideship, bessarion. Others are decent. Bayview gets about 10,000 a day. That's success. Apparently you do not want to realize how much sheppard has done. That's a shame.

But you're right, there is no comparison for Sheppard, that's because no other city in the world is dumb enough to cancel construction halfway through, and then pick up construction 10 years later with a different technology choice on the same bloody corridor! If there isn't a case study somewhere else for it, it's for 2 reasons:
1) nobody else has thought of it yet
2) nobody else is stupid enough to actually try it.

Nooo dude, the truth pains their eyes. Have mercy upon them.

SELRT is probably not the smartest idea, but it can be made useful if treated as primarily a local service.

Do yourself a favour, and your city a favour. Oppose this inferior option and demand extending the Subway - if by a few km's only, then so be it, but demand extending the subway!
I am shocked that there are no protests. I am really shocked.

The SELRT is going to be tunneled in the most congested area, so what is the problem?

Tram fanatic, if you are gonna bother tunneling, then the costs rise drastically. If you are going to spend so much to tunnel, then for crying out loud just extend the metro line, as the costs are not much more.

I've never once called the Sheppard East subway a failure, and in a previous post I used the passengers/km data to prove otherwise. Why do you think I was advocating for it's extension to Victoria Park?

Any advocating for you is half hearted. You support the tram plan for sheppard, so that way you are opposed to extending the subway. Where is that active criticism of the SELRT from you?

I never said Sheppard was a failure, but I am not going to call it a success just because of ridership.

You've just argued more or less that it is a stupid thing that should not be supported, and left in its current silly state rather than enhanced as originally planned.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

What on earth are you talking about?

I've never once called the Sheppard East subway a failure, and in a previous post I used the passengers/km data to prove otherwise. Why do you think I was advocating for it's extension to Victoria Park?

Why do you make such absurd personal attacks with absolutely no basis?

Nfitz I may have gotten carried away in the discussion, if I misappropriated opinions expressed in the past to you I apoligize. I have deleted the offending post.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

It's great to know that you consider large scale inefficiencies as success stories!

When the line has been castrated and separated from two of it's more significant ridership generators (Downsview and STC) and still manages some competitive ridership numbers I'd argue that it succeded in spite of it's limitations. Is it a ticker tape parade down Yonge st. success? No, but the cost of the line is an issue with the TTC's subway construction methodologies and not with the ridership numbers.

 

[gweed123]

When the line has been castrated and separated from two of it's more significant ridership generators (Downsview and STC) and still manages some competitive ridership numbers I'd argue that it succeded in spite of it's limitations. Is it a ticker tape parade down Yonge st. success? No, but the cost of the line is an issue with the TTC's subway construction methodologies and not with the ridership numbers.

Bingo. It does well for what it is. Would it be better if the entire thing was completed as originally envisioned? Absolutely. I think it would rival the Spadina line in terms of ridership. Maybe not immediately on opening, but within 10 years of opening (10 years of the extension opening I mean).

 

[Rainforest]

But the short length limits the potential of that line. Of course, it would be better to either secure funding for a longer subway line before starting any construction, or start it as a partly tunneled LRT from the onset.

The SELRT is going to be tunneled in the most congested area, so what is the problem?

My comment applies back to the situation before the construction of Sheppard subway started. At that time, it would be smarter to either secure funding for a reasonably long subway line and then start construction; or plan it as LRT from the onset. Either way, the transfer at Don Mills would be avoided.

Now, converting the existing subway tunnel to LRT would be too expensive: $670 million. This is more than 50% extra to the whole cost of SELRT, without adding a single new transit stop.

 

[gweed123]

My comment applies back to the situation before the construction of Sheppard subway started. At that time, it would be smarter to either secure funding for a reasonably long subway line and then start construction; or plan it as LRT from the onset. Either way, the transfer at Don Mills would be avoided.

Now, converting the existing subway tunnel to LRT would be too expensive: $670 million. This is more than 50% extra to the whole cost of SELRT, without adding a single new transit stop.

They did secure funding. However, even "secured" funding was not enough to spare it from Good Ol' Mikey's chopping block. Only reason we got what we got was because a decent portion of the project was past the point of no-return. Eglinton West wasn't at that point yet, which is why we have what we have on Eglinton: nothing.

 

[leopetr]

no other city in the world is dumb enough to cancel construction halfway through

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U55_(Berlin_U-Bahn)

 

[GraphicMatt]

They did secure funding. However, even "secured" funding was not enough to spare it from Good Ol' Mikey's chopping block. Only reason we got what we got was because a decent portion of the project was past the point of no-return. Eglinton West wasn't at that point yet, which is why we have what we have on Eglinton: nothing.

I think you also have to consider the political machinations and motivations that led to Sheppard. Misguided 1980s leftism that called for a no-growth downtown and Mel Lastman's frankly ego-driven need to give North York a subway line combined and gave us the Sheppard line as it exists today.

 

[gweed123]

I think you also have to consider the political machinations and motivations that led to Sheppard. Misguided 1980s leftism that called for a no-growth downtown and Mel Lastman's frankly ego-driven need to give North York a subway line combined and gave us the Sheppard line as it exists today.

Oh I have no doubt that the backroom deals and dubious planning rationales that led to the Sheppard subway in the first place shouldn't have happened. North York wasn't the area most in need of a subway, but they got it. I'm just saying that, once it had been decided that it was going forward, and even when funding was committed, a new Provincial government can still come in and pull the plug, or at least castrate the project to a mere fraction of what it was intended to be.

Misguided planning is one thing, but criticizing what I view as an unfinished project in my opinion isn't fair to that project. And yes, I do consider the Sheppard Subway to be an 'unfinished project'.

 

[GraphicMatt]

Politically, I don't see how it could ever get finished, honestly. The cost-benefit isn't there but it's certainly a good political football for certain politicians to have around, winning votes every election cycle by vowing to extend it but then not doing it.

 

[gweed123]

Politically, I don't see how it could ever get finished, honestly. The cost-benefit isn't there but it's certainly a good political football for certain politicians to have around, winning votes every election cycle by vowing to extend it but then not doing it.

The cost-benefit really isn't there for the SELRT either. The question comes down to which one would you rather have as part of your city-wide transit network 20+ years from now? Granted, the cost-benefit made more sense for the Sheppard subway back when it was first proposed, before construction costs jumped by $50-100 million/km.

But let's face it, over the next 20 years, major centres like STC, NYCC, and Square One will be seeing the bulk of the densification that's occuring in the suburban areas (at least on units/km2 basis). There is going to be increased pressure on these nodes to have more extensive transit connections than what they have now, much more so than Sheppard and Morningside. Building proper connections to these nodes now will only help fuel the development, and will ensure that these areas are built up in a transit-friendly way. Yes, there will be a fair amount of "avenuization" that will occur with LRT construction, but it pales in comparison to the amount of high density construction that will be occuring at these growth centres. Like it or not, STC is going to become the transit gateway for the entire Eastern GTA, so it makes sense to put the transit infrastructure there on the Toronto side of things sooner rather than later. A poorly connected hub will not encourage people to use it, and they will continue to drive as they currently do. A convenient hub with a multitude of different transit and rapid transit options will ensure that the hub does its job, and gets people out of their cars and onto transit.