Aww man here we go again.
If they run underground in a tunnel at the same speed (and more frequently) than a Toronto-style subway, then yes, they are rapid transit.
To suggest otherwise is astounding.
If you are already digging, then there is no reason why not make that a metro instead of a tram. The difference in cost is minimal. The metro is superior, and the better long term investment.
I've never referred to anything in Chicago as a subway.
You could. They were underground lines for cable cars... that is a subway. They still have the tunnels to this day, but I think they're closed. But yeah, that is a subway, be it by bike, cable car, tram, or highspeed rail.
1) Eglinton will be more useful to more people right now than Sheppard would be in 50 years. Ridership on bus only Eglinton exceeds ridership on the sheppard subway. The money is better spent on a long Eglinton line.
Not necessarily. First of all, a full sheppard line will actually be useful. Connectivity of the system matters a lot, much more than you can imagine. Especially for cross town travel, which we are very ill equipped for. The sheppard line is much cheaper in cost, so why not finish it? The thing is that construction of it has already begun. What has been made thus far is a success. So, naturally the next step is to finish building the rest of it.
If there was no sheppard mini-line, then I would say lets build eglinton and forget sheppard in the near future. But sheppard is already there. Limiting it is a problem.
Most importantly, land use is what makes or breaks stuff. With adequate landuse, sheppard can be well off on its way to a great story. Unfortunately, what build toronto, integrating land use and transit planning, is something of the past. It's what paranoid conservative and liberal dickheads call socialist authoritarianism - but because of this socialist authoritarianism Toronto was the best city in north america, and today is among the best.
2) Trams can be rapid transit, if they're implemented correctly (as in Calgary)
That requires much grade separation. You can not do that on Eglinton in a way that can be good. It will require digging - costs that bring it to 97% of subway construction costs. Toronto's trams stop. They accelerate, slow down, they stop. At stations, at lights, because of heavy snowfall, you name it. They are not in any way rapid transit.
However... I would not mind having a tram line on Jane street. That is where the western terminus of the sheppard subway should be one day in the future.
3) Again, that's doubtful. An Eglinton line will be more beneficial on its own, and if interfaced with a downtown relief line its benefits are increased dramatically.
Think about it. A high capacity system running from Jane to STC on sheppard vs a low capacity tram going above ground from the eastern end of the green line... going above ground stopping and whatnot on a regular frequent basis. Then going underground into what should be a metro, not a tram for 13 km. Then popping back up and chugging along with nice coffee breaks at all those red lights. Like no thanks. If you are going to dig for 13 km then just spend the two percent more and make it a subway. It helps future generations. And if we take land use planning into consideration, the benefits will be threefold.
There's nothing stopping them converting it to subway in the future if necessary (but it would be a long, long, way off, given that even the passenger demand for the 2030s is well below that the LRT can handle.
The models used for that study are bullshit.
On the other hand, sheppard models did justify a subway to STC. But why bother looking at real things when we can concoct some medicine for the masses to swallow?
For not much more money, one could simply do it as subway from Jane to Don Mills; but then you would have to change vehicles (twice if your travelling from Victoria Park to Royal York) and the trains from Jane to Don Mills would come less frequently. I don't know how anyone would benefit from this.
A very reasonable thing in my opinion, to be changing modes. It's a long route, what do you expect?
Or you can just build it all as a metro from the very start. Stockholm built subway lines before any demand was there. The benefits were priceless. You see, the ridership comes there, when one integrates land use. Toronto has been known for this. It's what made our current system as great as it is.
And besides ... two subways to Scarborough Centre?
Why not? I personally would keep the RT going there for some time, and get sheppard to go down to there first.
Compare ridership of Sheppard subway plus/I] the Sheppard E bus as that is a more comparable analogy to Eglinton E than simply looking at the Sheppard subway. Riders still taking buses south to the Danforth line from the Sheppard area would be attracted to a one seat ride to Yonge
The problem with this methodology is that it would suggest that the sheppard subway is not too bad.
The paranoid camp wants to destroy it by making it into a tram. Insane, ain't it?
Why would the TTC want to make the same mistake of the Sheppard Stubway on Eglinton? There is no bias. The demand on Eglinton beyond 2030 can be easily handled by LRT|. Why would you spend the extra money on a subway if a cheaper mode can handle the projected ridership?
Integrate land use and you will exceed tram levels quickly.
Why spend extra money for the metro - because the cost difference is minimal.
As for your biased studies that use today's figures and underproject into the future... throw them in the trash bin.
Just add some high rise towers around some stations. You know, like when they built the green line there were quite a few high rise complexes a short walk away from the metro. New employment spaces were mainly around the lines. It makes perfect sense.
The original Eglinton West heavy rail subway was only between Allen Road (Spadina subway) and Black Creek Drive. It was not to go to Jane Street. The current plans for Eglinton is to extend the underground subway portion east of Allen Road to the Leslie Street/Don Mills area, the section not including in the original design, with the remainder sections east and west being above ground right-of-way.
What are you trying to say my good man? What? Let me help you.
The original eglinton plans were to make it an entire crossroute. Eglinton west metro was only the tip of the iceberg for what was to come. Eglinton west on its own was small. It should have been bigger. But, it was just the first piece to the puzzle. Nobody is insane to build such a small metro line and stop with no plans later.
