[LAz]

lolz yeah, in chicago they built lines into the cornfields 100 years ago. It was used to promote development.

The pink line is overwhelmingly elevated, not at grade. A small part on the very end of it is at grade.



The point stands, that the sheppard line is a spactacular success that we should promote, not negate.

 

[W. K. Lis]

lolz yeah, in chicago they built lines into the cornfields 100 years ago. It was used to promote development.

The pink line is overwhelmingly elevated, not at grade. A small part on the very end of it is at grade.



The point stands, that the sheppard line is a spactacular success that we should promote, not negate.

During the construction of the Toronto Civic Railway streetcar line. Danforth Ave looking east from point east of Pape Ave, July 7, 1913:

Most of what we have today was a result of the streetcar. The infill was the result of the subway.

 

[Justin10000]

It's been discussed over and over again on these boards. The current ridership numbers on Sheppard E (as a stubway) exceeds the ridership of, "successful", subway lines around the world. Calling it a mistake means that all those lines are mistakes as well...

What subway runs a shortened trains over 5km, where the intermediate stations are barely used? There is no line comparable to the Sheppard, and comparing it to other lines still will not justify it's construction.

1 Billion for a 5km line to a mall is not a good investment, nor can be considered a sucess.

 

[gweed123]

What subway runs a shortened trains over 5km, where the intermediate stations are barely used? There is no line comparable to the Sheppard, and comparing it to other lines still will not justify it's construction.

1 Billion for a 5km line to a mall is not a good investment, nor can be considered a sucess.

Don't hate the player, hate the game. It's not the Sheppard line's fault it was cut off at the knees (Harris funding cuts), and it's also not its fault it is about to be permanently cut off at the knees again (SELRT). You can't really judge that it shouldn't have been built when only half of it was. That's like looking at a half-finished piece of art and saying "it's ugly, you should have never started working on it".

But you're right, there is no comparison for Sheppard, that's because no other city in the world is dumb enough to cancel construction halfway through, and then pick up construction 10 years later with a different technology choice on the same bloody corridor! If there isn't a case study somewhere else for it, it's for 2 reasons:
1) nobody else has thought of it yet
2) nobody else is stupid enough to actually try it.

The Sheppard corridor, and in specific the SELRT, is the latter.

 

[Rainforest]

Good point, I was assuming Progress, near the current route. McCowan would certainly be cheaper, but would fail to serve those along Progress ...

True; but Progress / Centennial campus will continue to be served by buses, it is not a very long trip.

On the other hand, people who board SELRT between Agincourt and McCowan and want to get to BD subway, can easily do so if a connection goes via McCowan and there exists a dedicated branch of LRT that serves such route. That will make SELRT more useful. (If the connection is at Sheppard / Progress as in the SLRT plan, then they have to go east all the way to Progress and then backtrack west; or, just take a bus.)

Moreover, McCowan LRT can go further north into Markham (Hwy 7 / Markville Mall).

... which also raises the problem of eliminating service along the current RT route - particularly to the relatively well used Lawrence East/Kennedy area.

That depends on the route selected for subway. If the current SRT alignment is reused, that probably requires a complete rebuild of the Kennedy station and the Ellesmere - Midland curve, but the Lawrence East station will be preserved.

If the subway is built on a new alignment (a better choice IMO), then the current Lawrence East station will not persist, but a new Lawrence station will be built at Brimley or McCowan. To serve the local cluster at the current Lawrence East, they can just run a special express bus route, Kennedy Stn - Kennedy northbound - Lawrence eastbound - Midland southbound - Kennedy Stn. Just 2 or 3 vehicles can provide a decent service, and the cost of those will be negligible compared to the benefits of choosing the best subway alignment.

Another possibility is to add a Lawrence East GO station.

I'm not sure why a mode change at STC is any more acceptable than at Kennedy. And if the LRT become surface, then travel times from the Sheppard/Markham Rd area will be significantly longer with the subway extension to STC than they are with the current plan.

Indeed it doesn't matter if the mode change is at STC or at Kennedy; what I meant is that they did not want a mode change at both STC and Kennedy. So, by retaining the mode change at Kennedy, they force themselves to continue the fully grade-separate and therefore expensive SLRT well beyond STC.

The travel times from the Sheppard/Markham Rd area to STC will be longer on the surface LRT, but not dramatically longer. It is probably 10-12 min on surface LRT, vs 5-6 min using SLRT guideway.

But other group of riders from Scarborough (not from the Sheppard/Markham Rd area) will probably benefit more from the subway extension. If they arrive on Lawrence East, Ellesmere, Brimley, McCowan buses and want to get on BD subway, they will see one transfer removed if the subway is extended.

 

[Rainforest]

2) nobody else is stupid enough to actually try it.

The Sheppard corridor, and in specific the SELRT, is the latter.

SELRT is probably not the smartest idea, but it can be made useful if treated as primarily a local service. One important point is connections to the bulk of the network. Travelling on SELRT from the eastern parts of Scarborough to Don Mills subway will take too long. However, a good connection to BD corridor and a better GO service at Agincourt can make SELRT more appealing as a mean to reach those transit lines.

Another potentially winning bet is the extension to UTSC. I don't think many students will reach Yonge line, get to Sheppard, get to Don Mills on subway, and then "enjoy" a 35-min ride from there to UTSC; this is no better than just taking the 95E bus from York Mills Stn. However, students are, on average, more flexible in choosing their residence. If enough students rent near Sheppard East, plus some just live there and chose UTSC because of that in the first place, that can boost SELRT ridership somewhat.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

What subway runs a shortened trains over 5km, where the intermediate stations are barely used? There is no line comparable to the Sheppard, and comparing it to other lines still will not justify it's construction.

1 Billion for a 5km line to a mall is not a good investment, nor can be considered a sucess.

Wasn't Bloor-Danforth run with 4 car trains at one point?

 

[Rainforest]

What subway runs a shortened trains over 5km, where the intermediate stations are barely used? There is no line comparable to the Sheppard, and comparing it to other lines still will not justify it's construction.

1 Billion for a 5km line to a mall is not a good investment, nor can be considered a sucess.

It's not like all passengers of Sheppard subway are visitors of that mall. Don Mills Stn is a significant hub that anchors multiple bus lines.

But the short length limits the potential of that line. Of course, it would be better to either secure funding for a longer subway line before starting any construction, or start it as a partly tunneled LRT from the onset.

 

[Dan416]

Why would the TTC want to make the same mistake of the Sheppard Stubway on Eglinton? There is no bias. The demand on Eglinton beyond 2030 can be easily handled by LRT|. Why would you spend the extra money on a subway if a cheaper mode can handle the projected ridership?

Indeed, why would the TTC want to force a transfer on Sheppard riders? They should remedy that ASAP by cancelling the SELRT. I'm glad you've come to your senses about the Sheppard East LRT mistake.

 

[Justin10000]

But the short length limits the potential of that line. Of course, it would be better to either secure funding for a longer subway line before starting any construction, or start it as a partly tunneled LRT from the onset.

The SELRT is going to be tunneled in the most congested area, so what is the problem?

 

[Voltz]

Indeed, why would the TTC want to force a transfer on Sheppard riders? They should remedy that ASAP by cancelling the SELRT. I'm glad you've come to your senses about the Sheppard East LRT mistake.

I don't go through Don Mills that often, but I could have sworn there is already a transfer there, and a long one too, with plenty of traffic congestion and a plethora of those evil red lights as the bus crawls its way out of the station and over the 404.

 

[nfitz]

Another possibility is to add a Lawrence East GO station.

That's an interesting thought.

 

[nfitz]

Wasn't Bloor-Danforth run with 4 car trains at one point?

Yes, the YUS was also run with 4-car trains at times. They used to call those times "off-peak".

Everyone was always running for the train that didn't stop where they were expecting it.

I'd forgotten all about this until I managed to miss a short NYC subway train last year, because it stopped nowhere near where I was standing.

 

[Justin10000]

The PATCO line in New Jersey uses 2 car trains on the weekends. I nearly missed the train due to the where the train stopped.

 

[Woodbridge_Heights]

*delete*