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Which transit plan do you prefer?

  • Transit City

    Votes: 95 79.2%

  • Ford City

    Votes: 25 20.8%
  • Total voters
    120
gweed123 said:
If people are willing to settle for fewer KMs of rapid transit in exchange for better rapid transit, I would think that's a pretty fair choice to make.
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But you need to quantify how much fewer kms and how much 'better' the rapid transit would be.

Just speaking hypothetically, I don't know how many people would choose to build 3km of a line that would have covered/indoor stations and travel at an average of 30km/h versus 10km of a line with open stops that would travel at an average of 25km/h.

Realistically, subway is going to cost 3 or more times the amount per km than median, partially grade separated LRT. Projections for the surface (not subway) of Eglinton (for example) are a minimum of 22km/h (up to 31km/h). Average subway speeds (accounting for slowing to a stop at stations, dwell time and accelerating back up to speed) aren't that much faster.

If in the hypothetical example above, you've now got to travel those extra 7km on a bus averaging 15km/h to get to that 3km of subway (instead of 25km/h for 10km of LRT), you certainly aren't getting there any faster and can you really claim you are getting 'better' service than you'd get with an LRT?
 
The biggest issues now are the project timing and funding commitments, rather than hypothetical advantages of either mode. The best course of action would be to continue with both SELRT (as is) and Eglinton LRT (with some design tweaks to enable higher future capacity in the central section). Cancellations / deferrals in either project will likely result in them not being completed (or not even started) in the foreseeable future.

In reality, Eglinton LRT will probably survive, but SELRT will be almost certainly cancelled by Ford.
 
Rainforest, I'm ok with that scenario. Cancel the Sheppard line to refocus it as a subway line and build the underground portion of the Eglinton LRT. It's for all intents and purposes a subway.
 
gweed123 said:
Find me 1 portion of Transit City where there is a at-grade intersection that has crossing arms. Find me 1 portion of Transit City that runs through a transit mall. Find me 1 portion of Transit City (aside from the SRT, which we all know was initially intended as an ICTS upgrade) where the surface sections DON'T run in-median. Either the C-Train or the Green Line have most of these, which play a significant role in their speed and efficiency. Transit City does not have these. It is certainly more towards the "streetcar" end of the LRT spectrum than either of those 2 other lines are.
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The Green line have neither crossing arms nor does it run through any transit malls. Other than one branch that runs on a former railway (and thus grade-separated except for pedestrian crossings at stations) and half a branch that runs on the street in mixed traffic, operationally the Green line is probably as similar to Transit City as you can get in North America (complete with subway [cf. Eglinton], an El [cf. SRT], and a majority in street-median ROW without transit priority signal).
 
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gweed123 said:
Find me 1 portion of Transit City where there is a at-grade intersection that has crossing arms. Find me 1 portion of Transit City that runs through a transit mall. Find me 1 portion of Transit City (aside from the SRT, which we all know was initially intended as an ICTS upgrade) where the surface sections DON'T run in-median. Either the C-Train or the Green Line have most of these, which play a significant role in their speed and efficiency. Transit City does not have these. It is certainly more towards the "streetcar" end of the LRT spectrum than either of those 2 other lines are.
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Find me one section of the St. Clair streetcar with kilometre after kilometre of tunnel. Find me one section of St. Clair with an operating speed greater than 16 km/hr in rush hour... greater than 20 km/hr .... greater than 23 km/hr. Heck, much of the Eglinton line is greater than 30 km/hr!

To compare the Transit City LRT lines to St. Clair demonstrates a complete and total lack of understanding of what these LRT are. I'd suggest reading some of the reports.

Transit City seems a lot closer to the Green Line than it does to the St. Clair streetcar.

Another good comparison would be London's Tramlink. Similar operating speed. Used in the suburbs where the Underground and Overground end.
 
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SpacingToronto: Let’s Save Transit City Together – Saturday, 2PM

With news that the Ford Administration will ask for Transit City progress to be halted as one of its first orders of business, a group of Torontonians is building support for the rapid transit plan, beginning with a canvas on Saturday afternoon. The group's first canvas is planned for the ward represented by Ford’s nominee for TTC chair, Councillor Karen Stintz. Stintz had campaigned for re-election earlier this fall as a staunch supporter of Transit City in part because it would bring an underground LRT to the portion of Eglinton Ave. that she represents.

For the many who have blogged, Tweeted, Facebooked and commented their frustration with Ford's plan to cut this vital infrastructure, this is your opportunity to get involved.

When: Saturday, December 4, 2-4PM

Where: Northwest corner, Yonge & Eglinton.

What: Canvassing the Yonge & Eglinton community in Ward 16 to organize supporters of Transit City and inform people of what’s at stake.

Who: All supporters of great public transportation! Children are welcome and whether you like to speak to strangers or not, there’s a role for you.
Click to expand...

Click on this link to SpacingToronto for the RSVP.
 
Out of curiosity, what exactly is the technical difference between our current subways and the new LRTs? I know everyone loves to talk about building more subways, but what about demolishing subways? I know that they 2 systems run on different grades of rail, but how hard would it be to convert one over to the other?

As it stands, the Sheppard Line goes nowhere. As I recall, the proposal is to dig down and build an LRT line down where the subway ends and have them transfer down there. If we're already going to dig, why not convert the subway line into an underground LRT and save ourselves the transfer point. With the entire line as LRT, the may even be able to connect the Sheppard LRT to the Finch LRT for 1 long continuous Uptown Crosstown Line.

Thoughts?
 
mtundu@gmail.com said:
Out of curiosity, what exactly is the technical difference between our current subways and the new LRTs? I know everyone loves to talk about building more subways, but what about demolishing subways? I know that they 2 systems run on different grades of rail, but how hard would it be to convert one over to the other?

As it stands, the Sheppard Line goes nowhere. As I recall, the proposal is to dig down and build an LRT line down where the subway ends and have them transfer down there. If we're already going to dig, why not convert the subway line into an underground LRT and save ourselves the transfer point. With the entire line as LRT, the may even be able to connect the Sheppard LRT to the Finch LRT for 1 long continuous Uptown Crosstown Line.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

not going to happen
 
mtundu@gmail.com said:
Out of curiosity, what exactly is the technical difference between our current subways and the new LRTs? I know everyone loves to talk about building more subways, but what about demolishing subways? I know that they 2 systems run on different grades of rail, but how hard would it be to convert one over to the other?

As it stands, the Sheppard Line goes nowhere. As I recall, the proposal is to dig down and build an LRT line down where the subway ends and have them transfer down there. If we're already going to dig, why not convert the subway line into an underground LRT and save ourselves the transfer point. With the entire line as LRT, the may even be able to connect the Sheppard LRT to the Finch LRT for 1 long continuous Uptown Crosstown Line.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

The conversion option had been studied by Metrolinx (Finch - Sheppard Corridor study) and their cost estimate was $670 million; that's more than 50% extra to the whole cost of Sheppard LRT. Looks like too pricey for the chance to eliminate one transfer.

The combined Finch W - Sheppard E line would be too slow for a useful crosstown trunk; 38 km at 23 kph will take more than 1.5 hours on the LRT alone, not counting any time spent on connecting buses.

Sheppard LRT is (actually, would be) somewhat useful, but only as a feeder line. A usable crosstown line has to be faster.
 
nfitz said:
Find me one section of the St. Clair streetcar with kilometre after kilometre of tunnel.
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Take out the Eglinton tunnel, and you could say the same thing for Transit City. You seem to always want to only refer to Eglinton, and completely ignore the fact that the other 7/8 of Transit City uses in-median rail, just like.... OMG, St. Clair!

nfitz said:
Find me one section of St. Clair with an operating speed greater than 16 km/hr in rush hour... greater than 20 km/hr .... greater than 23 km/hr. Heck, much of the Eglinton line is greater than 30 km/hr!
Click to expand...

The only reason Transit City will be faster is because the intersections on suburban streets are farther apart. If St. Clair had the same intersection spacing, the speeds would be identical. The track configuration is nearly identical between the two. The only differences are the stop spacing, the intersection spacing, and the fact that TC will have slightly longer surface platforms.

nfitz said:
To compare the Transit City LRT lines to St. Clair demonstrates a complete and total lack of understanding of what these LRT are. I'd suggest reading some of the reports.
Click to expand...

Umm, no it doesn't. And I never said they were exactly like St. Clair, I just said they were using a similar configuration: light rail vehicles operating almost exclusively in the median of a major roadway. And I have read the reports, thank you very much. And thank you for basically calling me incompetent. Much appreciated. Just because I disagree with you does not make me incompetent.

nfitz said:
Transit City seems a lot closer to the Green Line than it does to the St. Clair streetcar.
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Eglinton, I would agree with you. However, Eglinton is only about 1/8 of Transit City. What about the other 7/8?

nfitz said:
Another good comparison would be London's Tramlink. Similar operating speed. Used in the suburbs where the Underground and Overground end.
Click to expand...

London also has more than 2 1/2 subway lines to handle the load of these LRT lines...
 
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nfitz said:
Find me one section of the St. Clair streetcar with kilometre after kilometre of tunnel. Find me one section of St. Clair with an operating speed greater than 16 km/hr in rush hour... greater than 20 km/hr .... greater than 23 km/hr. Heck, much of the Eglinton line is greater than 30 km/hr!

To compare the Transit City LRT lines to St. Clair demonstrates a complete and total lack of understanding of what these LRT are. I'd suggest reading some of the reports.

Transit City seems a lot closer to the Green Line than it does to the St. Clair streetcar.

Another good comparison would be London's Tramlink. Similar operating speed. Used in the suburbs where the Underground and Overground end.
Click to expand...

Your refusal to compare St.Clair to SELRT is quite disappointing...

We have all read the specs on Eglinton and we know what's it's about and no one is saying it looks like St.Clair...the underground part anyways...

SELRT is a clear wast of money...

Not going to STC
Which is the natural terminal. THE destination eastbound. STC is where most of Eastern GO Bus stops before going further west or south.

By being linking STC to Sheppard-Yonge, you add ridership to the line...justifying the choice of subway technology
The strongest increase of ridership were on the Sheppard Line
( I showed too many time the numbers proving that SHeppard outperformed some of Chicago L longest line connecting them to the loop)

It will eliminate alot of Go Buses going to Yonge Street from the 401...reducing traffic...
Many of the YRT could just cross Steeles to go to a Sheppard Station instead of going to Finch

A LRT ending at Meadowvale and the Zoo won't boost your ridership and studying that route for subway technology was an insult to Torontonians intelligence. Of Course, a subway to the zoo or Meadowvale makes no sense but to STC, it's a all new story...


Transfer at Don Mills and adding ANOTHER transfer at McCowan for those who want to go to STC

Because we all know the TTC will keep the 190 Rocket...right?...right!

Average speed of 23kph...
I could find you Bus routes that operates as fast...

Stop pacing of 400m
Wasn't Transit City advertised as Rapid Transit???Impossible with a stop every 400m...

People and businesses in that area don't want it.
Those alreasdy using public Transit will continue to do so...People abadonning their car for something they don't want?
Unlikely

Toronto's biggest problem is gridlocks...removing 2 lane from Sheppard wont solve your problem unless your mode of transit is faster

-stops pacing at 800m for higher speed with the 85 every 30 Minutes for local stops like Yonge street
-Not being affected by traffic lights...I know about signal priority and I'm far from impress with St.Clair and Spadina
All of the above could have made this project acceptable but Miller had it in his head that people want cute streetcars to look outside and have a trip "à l'Europeenne'...No people want to save time!!!!!

1 BILLION!!!!
Let's be honest... we all know it won't stay at 1 Billion
I wouldn't be surprised that the price tag doubles and then people will have realized that a Sheppard subway wasn't that crazy after all...
Anyone thinking that SELRT wont cost over a Billion is beyond naive...

What was that??? 120KM ok TC for 6 Billion? I see...
 
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gweed123 said:
The funds for TC were cut back to what the original estimate for the project was ($8B). What was cut was the delta between the initial estimate and the $15B estimate that came out before the funding cut announcement. TC itself wasn't cut, the escalation was. If you don't want your funding cut, don't low-ball your estimates by nearly half of what they should have been.
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Hey, you've said this before but it's not even close to true. Be professional and do your research.
 
Also, this "Who will wait for an LRT in Toronto's BITTER ARCTIC WINTERS?" shit is ridiculous. They're installing heated shelters on Viva. They could do the same thing here.
 
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