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Ansem's proposal - expanding the subway as well as building LRT east of Agincourt - is certainly more realistic than outright cancellation of SELRT.

It should be noted that a number of politicians and planners have committed to SELRT just recently. If they flip and agree to cancel it now, it would quite simply look like they do not know what they are doing. In contrast, "upgrading the corridor by building the most used portion of it as subway and the rest as LRT" is a term that conveys positive meanings.

In addition, construction of the LRT will be underway by the time the amendment can be agreed upon and (hopefully) funded. We certainly don't want to pave the lanes back or to pay cancellation fees, as that could compromise any future transit funding for Toronto. But since the LRT construction starts from the east end and the carhouse is planned there, it will be possible to start expanding the subway at the other end, so that the lines meet at Agincourt eventually.
 
Ansem's proposal - expanding the subway as well as building LRT east of Agincourt - is certainly more realistic than outright cancellation of SELRT.

It should be noted that a number of politicians and planners have committed to SELRT just recently. If they flip and agree to cancel it now, it would quite simply look like they do not know what they are doing. In contrast, "upgrading the corridor by building the most used portion of it as subway and the rest as LRT" is a term that conveys positive meanings.

In addition, construction of the LRT will be underway by the time the amendment can be agreed upon and (hopefully) funded. We certainly don't want to pave the lanes back or to pay cancellation fees, as that could compromise any future transit funding for Toronto. But since the LRT construction starts from the east end and the carhouse is planned there, it will be possible to start expanding the subway at the other end, so that the lines meet at Agincourt eventually.

It's not a perfect solution, it's a compromise, but I'd be willing to accept it if it meant finishing the Sheppard Subway to STC.
 
If we could rally most of us here on this compromise:

-Sheppard Subway from Sheppard-Yonge to STC via Victoria Park, Warden, Agincourt GO.

-Sheppard LRT from Agincourt GO to Meadowvale and the Toronto Zoo
Most of us obviously want Sheppard to go to STC, but I could accept this. I think it's essential that it gets extended beyond Victoria Park.

Can't believe Scarborough's councilors didn't push for something like this.
 
Sheppard residents feel railroaded

http://www.torontosun.com/news/torontoandgta/2009/09/07/10775076-sun.html

The Sheppard East light rail transit line is either going to be a costly, short-sighted mistake that wreaks of poor city planning, or the greatest thing since sliced bread.

It all depends who you talk to.

Three years ago, the city and the TTC scrapped tentative, back-burner plans to extend Sheppard's five-stop "stubway" in lieu of a light rail transit line, a fancy covert name for a streetcar moving in its own right-of-way.

According to TTC officials, the streetcar line is going ahead because the population density -- and therefore potential riders -- along Sheppard Ave. don't warrant a subway.

Where 15,000 to 20,000 riders an hour require a subway, the Sheppard East LRT is only expected to move 3,000 an hour (at peak times) by 2021.

SERVES NEEDS

Gary Webster, the TTC's top bureaucrat, says the $950 million 14-km streetcar line -- set to break ground this month and run from Don Mills subway station to Meadowvale Rd., near the Toronto Zoo -- will serve the area's transit needs for decades.

"We've looked at a lot of numbers, and you never want to build whatever you're going to build and not be thinking long-term from a numbers point of view," Webster said. "Way out there, you know, 30 years from now, the LRT plan that we're proposing meets the needs."

But critics of the streetcar line, including some of the very people it's meant to move, were expecting a subway extension, which was derailed three years ago when Mayor David Miller unveiled his Transit City plan. The multi-billion-dollar transit blueprint calls for dedicated streetcar lines to criss-cross the city.

Citics argue the density would follow, as it did in North York when the Yonge subway line was extended to Sheppard and Finch Aves. in 1974.

"For 30 years, we've been waiting for a subway all that time," said Patricia Sinclair, a Sheppard East resident and transit rider. "If the whole idea in this province is to intensify, then development intensifies along subway lines, it certainly doesn't along streetcar lines."

Sinclair and others have mobilized their opposition to the streetcar line recently, fearing that traffic congestion and air pollution will worsen on Sheppard -- and local businesses and residents will suffer.

"People aren't going to get out of their cars and jump on streetcars, and they (the TTC) know it, but they will get out of their vehicles and get onto a subway," Sinclair said, adding she and others feel railroaded by the city and the TTC.

What's worse, she insisted, is the area still won't be served by rapid transit.

The streetcars, although operating in their own dedicated lanes, will have to stop at red lights (although signals will give priority to them), and if an intersection is blocked because of gridlock or an accident, the streetcar will sit still.

"People in Toronto, maybe even across Canada, we're so complacent, we're so apathetic," she said. "We're paying billions of dollars for a system that isn't even giving us rapid public transit."

Councillor Karen Stintz, an advocate of subway infrastructure and an avid public transit user, argued the city's streetcar plan is "short-sighted," saying Sheppard Ave. E., Eglinton and Scarborough-Malvern lines should be subways.

For Stintz, subway lines should be used to encourage development in areas where increased density is desirable, instead of waiting for development to first sprout from the ground -- a practice she called "ridiculous."

"Had we taken that approach on Yonge St., we wouldn't be the city we are today," she said. "From a long-term city-building perspective, (Sheppard) really should be a subway, as should the Eglinton and Scarborough lines.

"I think that we are taking a short-sighted approach to how we're going to use this investment to benefit the city."

But rather than cutting short a good idea, some have hinted the Sheppard "stubway" was a mistake in the first place and an LRT line along Sheppard corrects it.

"I won't go into the history of it," Webster said. "We've got what we got. Given where we are now, and where we're going in the future with our LRT network, some good questions could be asked. Like if we knew in 1997 what we know today, would we have built the subway to Don Mills? Maybe not."

Webster said extending the subway on Sheppard and hoping ridership grows would be a "waste of money," illuminating another problem municipal politicians have when it comes to spending public funds.

Imagine the maelstrom if the TTC and the city extended the Sheppard subway line when their own figures and bureaucrats suggested it wasn't necessary, spending upwards of four times the cost for a subway over an LRT?

"Would people rather have 200 kilometres of subway in the city? Sure, but I think most people realize that, practically, the way to go is LRT," said Councillor Adam Giambrone, chairman of the TTC. "A number of years ago, there was discu ssion of a subway (extension on Sheppard). Evidently, there was not enough political support or financial support to make it a subway, probably because when people actually looked at it, they realized it wasn't justified."

According to the TTC's own figures, 1 km of streetcar costs $40 million on average, whereas 1 km of subway (both figures including cars) costs around $200 million.

But Sinclair and other local residents don't buy it.

With the groundbreaking looming, they are desperately trying to stop the LRT and to get a subway.

"If we have to, we will do the Tiananmen Square thing," Sinclair said. "Now, we're trying to meet with (federal Finance Minister Jim) Flaherty, and if necessary, we'll put the request to Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

"These are pretty much the only two people that can stop this. That's the way we feel."

But Webster and Giambrone agreed a new streetcar line on Sheppard Ave. East doesn't preclude a subway extension in the future if the density ever warrants it.

"Money solves everything, and you can replace the LRT," Webster said. "If the demands are different than we foresee, and if at some point in, say, 2040 the numbers are in the order of 20,000 to 30,000 customers per hour, which is a subway capacity, then that's the answer.

"We'd have to do that."


Giambrone, who has become noticeably annoyed by questions about local opposition to the Sheppard East LRT, says the TTC has been able to stretch more than $7 billion in transit funding from the province to improve transit across the city.

---

FAST FACTS

Laying down the line

Facts on the Sheppard Ave. East LRT:

- Fall 2009 construction begins.

- $950 million to build (two-thirds provincial, one-third federal.)

- 9,500 jobs created.

- 14 km long (Don Mills subway station to Meadowvale Rd. near Toronto Zoo.)

- 30 stops proposed (spaced 440 metres apart on average.)

- 20 million riders a year by 2021 (3,000 an hour in one direction at peak times.)

- Completed by 2013.

BRYN.WEESE@SUNMEDIA.CA
 
I'm sorry but the Miller and theTTC are really showing that they are amateurs...

Spending a billion now to spend billions in the future to do the subway later...

In other countries, politicians and managers get fired and thrown in jail for far less than this.

This is an abuse, waste of taxpayer money.
 
From the Sun article above:
The streetcars, although operating in their own dedicated lanes, will have to stop at red lights (although signals will give priority to them)
General question for the room: do we actually *know* that the TSP implementation will have vehicles sitting at red lights? We're being promised a TSP implementation but have little actual detail - at least that I've seen - on how it will operate other than what we can infer from the published average route speed compared to the current average speed.

In other countries, politicians and managers get fired and thrown in jail for far less than this.
"Thrown in jail"? So your approach to getting those in power on your side is to make vaguely threatening comments towards them?

It's funny; where was all of this community outrage when the City, TTC, and Metrolinx were all actively soliciting people's opinions?

Meanwhile, we have Stintz saying that Scarborough-Malvern should be a subway. Sigh. No wonder we are in this mess.
 
Last edited:
Draft of letter to be sent to city councilors

I'm not an expert at it so please feel free to edit and comment until we agree on a final official version.

Of course, reference will be added in the final versions and appendix as well.
***********************************************

This letter is to let you know how important we think that the Transit City project ‘’Sheppard East LRT’’ should be upgraded by including a subway extension east to Scarborough Town Center via Agincourt Go Station and west to Downsview Station via Bathurst.

The Sheppard subway, as originally proposed, would serve plenty of useful purposes. If it were to run from the Scarborough Centre to Downsview station, it would go a long way to easing those cross-town commutes which do not pass through downtown Toronto. There was a general consensus that a north rapid transit crosstown was needs in Toronto until Mayor David Miller introduced Transit City as an alternative.

The fact remains that ridership on the Sheppard subway is twice what it was when only buses operated along Sheppard Avenue, and some of the connecting bus services have received a considerable boost in ridership as a result of the new service. The 190 Scarborough Centre Rocket, a limited stop service between Don Mills station and the Scarborough Town Centre, carried twice as many riders as expected. The ridership on the subway line is growing, and will continue to grow as a number of high-rise projects along the line open. When the Sheppard line is compare to Chicago’s ‘L’ lines, its performance exceeds 3 of Chicago’s subway lines that are much longer, have more stations and that goes downtown.

Red Line: 214,116 (34 Stations-37.7 Km going downtown)
Blue Line: 147,000 (33 Stations-55.7 Km going downtown)
Brown Line: 90,000 (28 Stations-18.3Km going Downtown)
Green Line 70,000 (29 Stations-33.5 Km going downtown)
Orange Line 59.000 (17 Stations-20.1 Km going downtown)

SHEPPARD SUBWAY: 45,860 (5 Stations-5.5Km not going downtown)

Pink Line 26,000 (22 Stations-18 Km going downtown)
Purple Line 31,000 (19 Stations-24 Km going downtown)
Yellow Line: 5,000 (2 Stations-8.2 km going downtown)

In the Toronto sun article of September 7th, many citizens and businesses have voiced their concerns and opposition to the streetcar line fearing that traffic congestion and air pollution will worsen on Sheppard Avenue East and that local businesses will suffer. They are skeptical about the fact that drivers will abandon their cars for the streetcars that will be stopping at red lights. The fact is that according to the EA for Sheppard East LRT, the speed gain will only be of 6 to 7 km/h, which will cost over a billion dollars. There will be no connections to Scarborough Town Centre and the Agincourt Go Station will not be connected to a rapid transit line making it less attractive for drivers from York region to use public transit.

We agree the best alternative to upgrade the Sheppard East LRT project is:

-Sheppard Subway east extension from Sheppard-Yonge to Scarborough Town Centre via Consumers, Victoria Park, Warden, Agincourt GO with minimal bus service on Sheppard Avenue East from Sheppard-Yonge to Agincourt.

-Sheppard East LRT from Agincourt GO to Meadowvale and the Toronto Zoo

-Sheppard Subway west extension from Sheppard-Yonge to Downsview Station via Bathurst.

We feel that this alternative will truly improve the service in both North York and Scarborough by connecting 3 transit hubs together (Scarborough Town Centre, North York Centre and Agincourt Go Station.

By having a true complete north rapid transit, it will further stimulate future business and residential development in the northern part of the city, which will make both North York and Scarborough grow faster and unite to important part of the city isolated by slow transit.

By also completing the line to Downsview Station, it will provide a better network connectivity and make it more efficient especially when students coming from Scarborough will have a faster access to York University when the Spadina line will be complete. Those working in the area of University Avenue won’t have to use the Yonge line since they will have to option alternative to continue to Downsview and use the Spadina line. This will convinced more drivers to leave their cars and use the Sheppard line.

Commuters using the GO Train would have a faster link to Scarborough Town Center and North York Civic Centre where thousands of jobs are located. By giving them a faster service, more drivers would be convince to leave their cars which would increase the ridership of both the Go and Sheppard line.

Also, despite being four kilometers away from the City of Markham, the presence of the Sheppard subway might convince some of their residents to use public transit to access the new Sheppard Stations instead of driving to downtown or North York Civic Centre.

We ask that you use all the means at your disposal to inform every citizens about the project.

We ask that you pubicly challenge this project with the support of as many citizens and businesses as possible along the corridor and beyond to put pressure on the current mayor, future candidates and Metrolinx to upgrade this project.

Thank you very much.

Sincerely,
 
From the Sun article above:

General question for the room: do we actually *know* that the TSP implementation will have vehicles sitting at red lights? We're being promised a TSP implementation but have little actual detail - at least that I've seen - on how it will operate other than what we can infer from the published average route speed compared to the current average speed.

The increased average speed comes largely from increased stop spacing. I doubt that TSP is going to have as much of an impact. You are right though that details are sketchy on this.


It's funny; where was all of this community outrage when the City, TTC, and Metrolinx were all actively soliciting people's opinions?

I have written letters to every member of the board of directors of Metrolinx and half the TTC Commissioners (not going to waste my time on those that would disagree any way). I have written my MPP (who agreed with me) and I have met my MP on the issue (who I have had a few personal contacts with). The latter have told me that though they share my concerns there's not much the can do about it. The former set did not bother to reply at all. I think the only way to get attention for your transit advocacy in this city is to become a left leaning transit activist who supports something other than a bus in every ward.

What I really despise as a Scarborough resident is how this has been sold. Knowing that very few residents actually pay attention to this stuff or can be easily placated by a glossy brochure or decent website, the TTC has resorted to marketing Transit City instead of engaging in honest and informed debate with the citizens who live in the impacted areas. Scarborough residents are routinely told that their only choice is a streetcar or a bus. Subways are not an option at all. Look at Giambrone's comments. And when legitimate concerns are raised, those who make them are quickly labelled NIMBYs, placated with bribes (BIA tax rebates and street beautification) or simply ignored. The only hope for us, is that this becomes an election issue which will draw more awareness to the project and its impact.

Meanwhile, we have Stintz saying that Scarborough-Malvern should be a subway. Sigh. No wonder we are in this mess.

I would write that off as a slip of the tongue.
 
Ansem,

I don't know if it's wise to compare to other cities necessarily other than to suggest that the Sheppard line would be successful by any definition other than the TTC.

Here's my letter to the Sun. It went unpublished. I suspect they didn't publish it because they had this piece in the pipeline:

Re: 'He put the city on right transit track' by John Lorinc

While Mayor David Miller should be given credit for bringing transit issues to the forefront locally and nationally, and for successfully convincing the Queen's Park and Ottawa to pitch in, his legacy should be recognized as one of squandered opportunities. The original 'Transit City' idea was pitched as $6 billion dollar plan that would blanket the city with light rail lines in lieu of apparently 'unaffordable' expansion of the existing subway network. Since then the costs for Transit City has skyrocketed. The costs for the first four lines is $10 billion. There are still three more lines to go. For the price tag of what's currently being spent, Toronto could have built 30-40 km of subway. Imagine what the final price of Transit City would have bought us.

Worse than being cost, is the real risk that Transit City could actually make total travel times longer for some riders. The TTC says that its buses average 17 km/h and its subways average 30 km/h. The Transit City lines, after spending billions for their right-of-ways will only average 23 km/h according to the TTC. While that may be a step up from a bus, the time savings could well be wiped out by the need to transfer to the subway to simply continue in the same corridor (as on Sheppard) or the longer wait times for service (as frequent buses are replaced with less frequent LRTs). Sheppard will see the worst of Transit City's traits. Just to continue on Sheppard will require two transfers and todays frequent local and express buses will be reduced to less frequent LRTs. Moreover, the capacity to change tracks in the future is being pre-empted by slating Sheppard East for construction first, a clear effort to preclude the completion of the Sheppard subway as planned to Scarborough Town Centre.

Even more disconcerting than the ballooning price tag or its ineffectual impact is the routes the money is being spent on. Instead of replacing heavily used bus routes with Light Rail Transit (LRT), under Mayor Miller's leadership areas of socio-economic need were prioritized to receive LRT lines. How LRT lines will cure the significant and complex socio-economic needs of the distressed neighbourhoods of this city is anyone's guess. But we can be certain, that it won't do much to improve transit for anybody.

It's unfortunate that Toronto City Councillors have largely been silent about the flaws of Transit City and its purported benefits. I sincerely hope that Toronto's next mayor will not throw good money after bad, and will take 'Transfer City' back to the drawing board to come up with a transit plan that truly seeks to serve Torontonians effectively and efficiently.
 
I always thought the "Transfer City" mock-name was kind of lame considering the only unnecessary transfer they're adding is the one between the Sheppard LRT and the Sheppard Subway. Am I missing something?
 
I always thought the "Transfer City" mock-name was kind of lame considering the only unnecessary transfer they're adding is the one between the Sheppard LRT and the Sheppard Subway. Am I missing something?

They are not getting rid of the one at Kennedy for tens of thousands of riders a day.
 
They are not getting rid of the one at Kennedy for tens of thousands of riders a day.

Yeah, but that's not really part of Transit City. Though it does seem like the SRT will be replaced with LRT.

Are you Keith L on Steve Munro's site? He just responded to one of your comments with a pretty good cost breakdown of subway extensions versus TC.
 

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