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The Toronto Sun has run articles covering concerns against Transit City. The Star only ran one about concern regarding construction a while back. This is The Star after all. Can you really imagine them criticizing Miller or his policies?
 
Unfortunately, every Star writer seems to have drunk the Kool Aid. And I think most are infected or shall I say paralyzed by the same fear that some on this board have. They are scared that any criticism of TC will lead to cancellation of the whole thing and nothing getting built. It's that whole "something is better than nothing" philosophy. After all, this is Toronto. Our mediocrity defines us.

This is Toronto? Our mediocrity defines us?

I'm not sure what Toronto you come from, but I'm from a city that is looking to completely revolutionize itself in nearly every way it possibly can.

Only a fool would complain about the new LRT lines that will redefine every suburban artery that it runs along. Only a fool could possibly think of covering boroughs like Scarborough with 30+km of LRT as a mistake. How many km of LRT is Mississauga getting? Zero. Yet we've managed to set in motion a network of LRTs that cover suburban Toronto and will change the shape of North York, Scarborough, and Etobicoke forever.

When subways are appropriate they will be implemented, but first the fabric of suburban Toronto must change to support HRT.

Toronto has proposed:

Jane LRT
Morningside LRT
Don Mills LRT
Waterfront West LRT
Sheppard East LRT
Finch West LRT
Eglinton LRT
Kingston Road BRT
The Downtown Relief Line
Extension of the SRT
The Yonge Line Extension
The Spadina Line Extension
New subway cars due in 2010
New streetcars that will significantly increase the capacity of existing streetcar routes
New streetcar routes serving the Eastern Waterfront
Not to mention GO train improvements that will significantly change the face of the entire metro area through electrification and the reduction headways to ~15mins.

If completed this will give Toronto one of the largest rail systems in the world. Keep in mind that Toronto already has one of the highest transit ridership percapita on the continent, this is a giant leap for public transportation in this city. I'd rather have LRTs cover the city than a few subway routes cannibalizing the system leading to inferior service over the years. This 'lines on a map' mentality is very different than capacity management that will get the most people where they are going efficiently.
 
My point is the mindless following of whatever Toronto/the TTC plan. We're born with the ability to think and analyze whether something makes sense or not. Some of Transit City makes sense (Finch LRT, Waterfront LRT), others don't (Sheppard East LRT, keeping the SRT and expanding it). I don't see why we shouldn't be able to debate and determine what is the best course of option, and not just blindly follow whatever GM say (Giambrone/Miller).
 
My point is the mindless following of whatever Toronto/the TTC plan. We're born with the ability to think and analyze whether something makes sense or not. Some of Transit City makes sense (Finch LRT, Waterfront LRT), others don't (Sheppard East LRT, keeping the SRT and expanding it). I don't see why we shouldn't be able to debate and determine what is the best course of option, and not just blindly follow whatever GM say (Giambrone/Miller).

That, I agree with. The best options should be debated and thought through. However to say Toronto has mediocre ambitions for not attempting to implement heavy rail corridors en mass is nonsensical.

However, I do believe that in the end the majority of decisions made will be appropriate for the corridor.

Sheppard East: was proposed to be shut down for cannibalizing the system in 2008, should not be extended. Instead the line should be (as proposed by some) downgraded to LRT and run straight through to Morningside. *waits for the gunshots* Why extend a route that has proved itself to be unviable? For the sake of network connectivity? Why build a route that is projected to cannibalize the system if a lower capacity long term option is available? Answer that question if you truly want to validate your argument for extending the Sheppard Subway.

The SRT most likely will get converted to LRT, and will be extended.
 
jaye101,

Your obviously new here and you have to catch up. Read through these threads and you'll find some sound critical analysis about Transit City.

Yes, I find the plan mediocre. Contrary to your belief that this will give us one of the largest rail systems in the world, what it'll really yield is one of the largest streetcar systems in the world that'll be dumping riders on to essentially 2.2 subway lines. It's a plan that does nothing to relieve the existing congestion at Yonge-Bloor. It will continue to forces tens of thousands of riders per day to transfer at Kennedy (and as Scarborough grows that could reach a 100k). The plan also seeks to create the same situation at Don Mills. As a Scarborough resident, I consider this flat out unfair. Why is it that most North York riders can get a two seat ride to the city centre but Scarborough residents are forced to endure some of the worst designed transfers in the city? No wonder everybody drives in Scarborough. What makes anybody think that a LRT is going to change that, is beyond me....particularly one that will only average 5 km/h more than the bus (according to the LRT).

Nobody here is saying LRT is bad period. There are corridors in Toronto where LRT is appropriate. For example, I believe the proposed SRT extension should be built as a Transit City LRT using Progress and the Malvern hydro corridor. As pointed out earlier, Finch West and the Waterfront (both east and west) are great candidates. North South streets are great candidates too. But at least put LRT in the right corridors. Why is south Morningside preferred over McCowan North, Vic Park, Warden or Kennedy in Scarborough? Those are far busier bus routes. Why Jane over Weston or Dufferin? Do you really think that an Eglinton subway which averages 26 km/h (4 kph less than the Bloor-Danforth line) is going to make people from Scarborough take the TTC to the airport? For the price tag of the plan (before the first shovel it's gone from 6 billion to 10 billion) which will probably reach about 15 billion, we could have finished every subway dream this city has and still had change to spare to build things like bus lanes (which I'd like to see on every arterial), the odd LRT (on suburban N-S corridors) and streetcar line (where LRT would not fit).

As for Sheppard East not being viable. Of course its not viable as long as it's 5 stations. However, even the Sheppard East LRT's EA has assessed that the corridor would attract far more riders with a subway extension than with a LRT. So if you think that the Sheppard East LRT is not viable, what makes you think the LRT will be? Especially if the EA says otherwise? Further on this point, viability depends on how you define it. As several have pointed out here, the Sheppard line carries more or nearly as many riders as some entire subway systems in the world. However, using the TTC's metrics which place an artificially high bar for viability, the subway is a failure. However, they set no such bar for LRT. As long as the proposed LRTs carry as many passengers as the bus routes they are replacing, they are to be considered successful. So a subway expansion that adds lots of riders is not viable, but a billion dollar LRT that merely replaces existing buses is viable.

Finally, I suggest you stop comparing Toronto to the rest of North America. It's a rather poor standard. We have nothing in common with places like LA. And I have no desire for Toronto to emulate Houston. That's like comparing yourself to the failing students in the back of the class. Compare yourself to to other leading cities. I want my Toronto to be on par with New York, London, Paris, Tokyo, etc. Can you see any of them surviving with just 3-4 subway lines and LRT for the rest? They would consider that mediocre.

And I say all this as a Malvernite who would benefit from two of the proposed LRTs and the RT extension.....
 
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Finally, I suggest you stop comparing Toronto to the rest of North America. It's a rather poor standard. We have nothing in common with places like LA. And I have no desire for Toronto to emulate Houston. That's like comparing yourself to the failing students in the back of the class. Compare yourself to to other leading cities. I want my Toronto to be on par with New York, London, Paris, Tokyo, etc. Can you see any of them surviving with just 3-4 subway lines and LRT for the rest? They would consider that mediocre.

Exactly!!! :)
 
jaye101,

Nobody here is saying LRT is bad period. There are corridors in Toronto where LRT is appropriate. For example, I believe the proposed SRT extension should be built as a Transit City LRT using Progress and the Malvern hydro corridor. As pointed out earlier, Finch West and the Waterfront (both east and west) are great candidates. North South streets are great candidates too. But at least put LRT in the right corridors. Why is south Morningside preferred over McCowan North, Vic Park, Warden or Kennedy in Scarborough? Those are far busier bus routes. Why Jane over Weston or Dufferin? Do you really think that an Eglinton subway which averages 26 km/h (4 kph less than the Bloor-Danforth line) is going to make people from Scarborough take the TTC to the airport? For the price tag of the plan (before the first shovel it's gone from 6 billion to 10 billion) which will probably reach about 15 billion, we could have finished every subway dream this city has and still had change to spare to build things like bus lanes (which I'd like to see on every arterial), the odd LRT (on suburban N-S corridors) and streetcar line (where LRT would not fit).

I happen to agree that in a balance between LRT and Subway, Transit City got it wrong. Though I favour much of Transit City.....Sheppard should be finished as a subway, over time, and the SRT should be subway to Scarborough Centre; and the DRL is needed. While I would just drop Eglinton East all together. (for the foreseeable future)

***

But I do want to chime in on corridor rationale.

I can explain it fairly easily.

The decision was made to try to serve every post-secondary institution in the 416 w/transit, as this is a logic target market, a major trip generator set; and a chance to get young adults into the transit habit.

So Morningside gets LRT to serve (UTSC); Finch West (Humber College); Jane serves York U (and ends up further west (in the south) than Spadina;late additions do the same (Lakeshore-Humber College south); Finch East (Seneca).

There is actually some sense to the idea; though I would have proposed to go about it a different way.

As for putting LRT in Hydro corridors I think that's daft. I don't live in a hydro corridor, go to school in one, work in one or shop in one. So that would mean I will have to take transit to go to a Hydro Corridor then Transfer, and end up going to somewhere else, where I'll likely need to transfer again. It may be cheap real estate w/fewer traffic lights, but that doesn't make it a sensible transit route.
 
This 'lines on a map' mentality is very different than capacity management that will get the most people where they are going efficiently.

Transit City is the ultimate 'lines on a fantasy map' plan. I'm sure an entire hour was spent deciding which corridors should have their buses replaced. Jane & Finch, Malvern, Flemingdon...three spots with socio-economic problems needing solutions, three priority neighbourhoods needing investments, six intersecting light rail lines. The youth of Malvern will be saved by Avenues and by getting to Fairview Mall 5 minute quicker!

Throwing darts at a map would have achieved results of similar benefit for the city. You mention "get the most people where they are going" but half of the highest ridership routes in the city were bypassed, as well as many shorter but extremely busy routes. Oh, that's Phase II, you or someone will say, as if the ballooning cost of the lines didn't already threaten half of the proposed lines.

As for putting LRT in Hydro corridors I think that's daft. I don't live in a hydro corridor, go to school in one, work in one or shop in one. So that would mean I will have to take transit to go to a Hydro Corridor then Transfer, and end up going to somewhere else, where I'll likely need to transfer again. It may be cheap real estate w/fewer traffic lights, but that doesn't make it a sensible transit route.

You're wrong. The only thing I can suggest is to take a trip along McNicoll/Finch to see one such hydro corridor for yourself, or, at least, follow the route along a satellite photo. You'll notice tens of thousands of people living right next to it, multiple schools - including Seneca, which actually has its parking lots in the hydro corridor - and even a fair number of jobs. It may not be the same for every corridor in the GTA, but the hydro corridor next to Finch is ideal for rapid transit...it's infinitely more sensible than some ridiculous Finch-Sheppard LRT that takes two hours to get across the city.

Or, visit the hydro corridor in Malvern (it's actually an old rail corridor, but that doesn't matter), where there's opportunities to run a line to the middle of Malvern and not be required to tunnel or run along residential side streets...and for about a kilometre. There's people and schools and stores adjacent to this rail corridor. If such a line didn't use this corridor, perhaps one poorly-used stop would be added at a side street.
 
Finally went ahead and created the petition:

http://www.petitiononline.com/ttc2009p/petition.html

Oh and to those who say it's too late: a defeatist attitude will get us nowhere. Hell, it's a defeatist attitude that resulted in Toronto settling for LRT in the first place.
Wow, 21 signatures (ignoring duplicates and retractions) in 5 weeks - and I think that's being generous, as it includes one from another province, and at leat 1, where the comment seems to oppose the position.

Clearly there is no significant opposition to the LRT!

Perhaps those opposing this can be a bit more pragmatic and rejoin the real world now?
 

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