[socialwoe]

"The main inequity I see is that your plan will leave Toronto with woefully inadequate north/south transit lines."

'woefully'-I get it. I thought Hwy 27 in the west and SRT in the east in addition to YUS were enough, especially considering two major obstacles for DRL-the overtrafficed Weston SUB (GO/VIA/CN/CP) which would need four additional tracks to accomodate all-day short distance commuter service (the other two would go towards Blue 22 or similar Pearson-Union link) but runs through historic enclave Weston which NIMBYs fear would be ruined if done; and the magnitudous (sp?) Don Valley on the Don Mills side of things.

"yet you expect that an additional 90,000 residents, office parks, and plazas will magically come along to justify your two subway extensions? If you're so certain that it will be developed, why not also propose CityPlace West for HighPark"

You're glib, you don't see the big picture, only what's happening in the here and now. What Malvern has over say Markville is that it's already apart of Toronto, closer hence more likely to develop before the outer suburbs. If the population of Toronto is expected to double over the next twenty years where are all thses new people going to live? Since the west is already so crowded they'll naturally wind up in less-populated GTA East (Scarborough and Durham). I told you already land use isn't constant and while I feel High Park one-hundreth the size of Rouge Park will remain what it is, that doesn't stop someone in the future from purchasing a parcel of Rouge and convert into residences, offices, whatever.

"the DRL becomes even more worthy in the short term since it would relieve YUS and BD, serve the Weston and Don Mills corridors, relieve downtown streetcar lines, and serve the parts of waterfront/downtown not near the YUS loop."

If by DRL you mean surface/elevated RT or LRT but not full-fledged underground subways and if we could get the whole thing from say Black Creek/Eglinton to Don Mills Stn or Seneca College built under billion I'd okay it. Pushing this may never get Toronto a Queen line though which is crucial for revitalizing the core, that's why I was against it. Perhaps instead of running it along Front keep the part of the Queen line from Dufferin to Braodview or better yet to Coxwell intact.

"I know it doesn't, so that's why I'd divert it."

That'd inconvinience anyone who needs Milton or Toronto in a hurry. The distance between Cooksville and MCC is five mins via bus, what's the big deal? A Hurontario RT with a link to the subway at Sherway (be it an actual subway connection or express bus service) is far more practical and realistic than proposing double decker trains fit into a narrow tunnel underneath a bustling multi-lane 'highway' for 2km :smokin !

"Oh, and I've read Network 2011. I have a copy. There are no rapid transit lines deep into Malvern, and certainly none to the Zoo."

I got my info from the Transit Toronto site in the section about the SRT. Official plans called for stops at Bellamy, Markham/Progress, Milner and Markham/Sheppard. However the article goes onto say it'd continue via the CN wye diagonally through Malvern to Finch/Morningside then possibly onward to the Zoo approaching from the north. It's not that unreasonable an idea if you consider it, mass transit as far east as it is west that is.

 

[unimaginative2]

Look, Malvern is not as far east as Kipling is west. Immediately to the west of Kipling is a million people. East of Malvern is Rouge Park, and east of that is agriculture. Seaton might some day be built, but the natural transportation routes to that community will be along the 407 corridor west to Malvern, or south to the 401/Lakeshore GO corridor. There is no significant infrastructure through the Rouge Park and there never will be. Moreover, Malvern has very weak connections with Markham to the north. Markham residents destined for a rapid transit connection to downtown (leaving aside the comparative attractiveness of frequent on the GO line with fare integration) would be much more attracted to a route further west than Malvern. Malvern is a small community which will remain, likely forever, at the edge of the urban area.

I think you aren't quite getting the meaning of the word "park". Nobody can buy a piece of Rouge Park. It is entirely owned by the government so that it may be preserved in perpetuity as a park. Nobody is ever going to develop Rouge Park.

In your fantasy map you support two heavy rail corridors to serve 30,000 people in Malvern, but you don't support heavy rail to the hundreds of thousands of people along the Don Mills corridor and waterfront?

Weston residents have said that they support rail service that stops in their neighbourhood. The DRL North route is along Don Mills, a street lined with dozens of apartment buildings and offie parks, not the Don Valley.

The MCC diversion would likely not add any travel time at all to the trip from Milton to Toronto. The length of track would be virtually the same. It's would also benefit Milton residents (as well as those in western Mississauga) who are destined for MCC, a major destination in the GTA. There's absolutely no reason why any type of tunnel couldn't be built under Hurontario, which is hardly a highway. Obviously the tunnel wouldn't be any narrower than it would need to be to accommodate heavy rail rolling stock. I would imagine that GO's current massive bilevels would be supplemented by smaller stock more suited to urban frequency service.

I don't think Queen needs a subway line to be "revitalized," unless by revitalized you mean "demolished and replaced with condos." It's being revitalized quite well as it is. The Toronto Plan specifically discourages high-density development of the stable single-family residential neighbourhoods east and west of downtown along Queen, one of Toronto's gems.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"'woefully'-I get it."

No, you don't. Your YUS, Sheppard, and Eglinton extensions will completely overwhelm the YUS loop at rush hour and your BD extensions will completely overwhelm that line, too. I guess you just won't be satisfied unless the subway lines are at crush load capacity 24/7 for their entire lengths.

The main obstacle to the DRL is that no one with any power or influence is talking about it. For its benefits, it is, by far, the best place we can sink capital dollars into the subway system.

There is nothing, absolutely nothing, NE of Malvern, and there probably never will be. There certainly will not be any development in the Rouge Park...because it is a park. A subway to the Zoo would be several km longer than a subway to Square One. Square One, however, is at the centre of a region with over a million people. What's around the Zoo? Nothing. Durham is simply too far away for its residents to ever rely on the TTC as an inter-regional transit system and its growth will be overshadowed by growth to the north, west, and south of Toronto.

 

[cdl42]

Realise that you guys are debating different things. Scarberian is debating wise and useful places to locate subway lines, while mr. woe's basic goal is to simply attempt to try and cover the 416 with subways... need and demand doesn't factor in to it.

Unfortunately, socialwoe's way of thinking seems to be the one closest to that of our elected leaders.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"Realise that you guys are debating different things. Scarberian is debating wise and useful places to locate subway lines, while mr. woe's basic goal is to simply attempt to try and cover the 416 with subways... "


But...but...but...as I said before, the first phase of my fantasy plan would be (immediately after all day, both way GO service on all lines, but then this thread was about TTC subway expansion) extensions from Kipling, Downsview, Finch, and Kennedy, both ends of Sheppard, an Eglinton line, and a DRL line up Weston and Don Mills - who, other than socialwoe, would say that doesn't cover the lion's share of the 416? It'd be within walking distance of basically everyone within 20km of downtown, for starters.

 

[cdl42]

Lion's share, sure... but what about the rest? South Etobicoke... Kingston Road... Rouge Park...

And you're talking about a well-connected network, with north-south connections and destination-oriented radial lines, not just attempting to cover every square inch in an "efficient" manner.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Efficient, schmefficient - Bridle Path needs a subway, too. Maids, nannies, gardeners, etc., do take transit.

 

[unimaginative2]

Socialwoe, your heart's definitely in the right place when it comes to subway construction. I'm a big supporter of more subways in the 416. There are, however, a couple of issues with your plans that make them a bit unrealistic. First of all, subways make sense where significant development is located or planned. Even cities with vast networks like New York don't serve every part of their cities. Large parks, for example, wouldn't likely merit a subway line.

Another big issue is that subway lines have limited capacity, and additional lines would inherently tax the capacity of existing routes. Whenever you add new capacity running east-west, you'll probably have to add significant capacity running north-south to accommodate the additional riders your new routes would attract. That's why you can't simply build three new east-west lines and massive extensions to existing routes without dealing with capacity constraints in the centre of the city. Yonge's already close to full running through the downtown core. If you added several subway lines' worth of transfer traffic to the line, it would become inoperable.

 

[roch5220]

I think your both crazy. Maybe we should dream about making a chocolate city.

"How do you make chocolate? You take dark chocolate, you mix it with white milk, and it becomes a delicious drink. That is the chocolate I am talking about,"

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"It's only a shame the general public doesn't have more of a say cause I'm certain most would want lines to the airport and in the direct core eons ahead of Lastman's folly or Sambora' s Vaughan fiasco."

If your say was heard and followed through, Lastman's folly would be extended to the Zoo and almost - but not quite - to the airport, and Sambora's fiasco would get built as planned. Or did you forget about that map you posted earlier?

Of course, you also said "Provided that the Sheppard Line convinently ends at Don Mills, the density east of Vic Park on Sheppard is slim and the density along Don Mills especially at York Mills, Lawrence, Eglinton is immense the 'Sheppard' Line could easily run down Don Mills and become the DRL line."

So you're against the Sheppard line, but added it to your map anyway, even though you think a DRL would be better, although it shouldn't be a subway. Sheppard = can't support subway (but you'd build it anyway). Don Mills = can't support subway. Rouge Park = can support two subways...

"Scarborough and Durham will catch up with the west, its the mentality that GTA East won't thats delayed the process thus far."

That's like saying West Vancouver needs two underwater subways so that it can 'catch up' with Surrey.

"And how the capacity of a east-west line not deminish by adding three other east-lines lines ot take off the load?"

Because you're not adding any new lines that go downtown other than Queen. Sure, it's nice to hope that everyone will use the Eglinton line to go from their house in West Hill to their job on the West Mall, but the reality is that a zillion people are also going to use it to go downtown.

"Everything I detailed were proposed by the city or TTC for years now. Even David Miller himself said he wants the Eglinton Line to run fron UTSC to the Airport."

No, half the stuff you propose is not supported by planners or politicians. Miller may have said he wants an Eglinton line, but only because Paul Bedford said it first - a line from the airport to Kingston is Bedford's fantasy line.

"DRL forces people into the core whether they want it or not."

For god's sake, who cares about the 6 people in Ajax commuting to Mississauga - I've already told you I'd build the Eglinton line...I've been calling for it on this forum forever.

 

[unimaginative2]

So you admit even to Meadowvale, East Torontonians still get the short end of the stick. Of course that's still better than three lousy subway stops and a bonafided streetcar ROW I suppose. Scarborough and Durham will catch up with the west, its the mentality that GTA East won't thats delayed the process thus far.

I'm baffled by what you mean here. Obviously Meadowvale doesn't have any subway access at all. Equally obviously, the subway goes far closer to the urban fringe in the east end.

Growth in GTA East will surely occur over the next few years, particularly as a result of emphasis from the Places to Grow plan. That doesn't mean that subways are going to make sense where there are large wilderness areas separating the built-up areas.

Again with that pessimistic thinking. At least get RT far as Markham-Sheppard so NE residents bus trips are cut in half, I still believe the Sheppard East Line would pay off in the long run but...

It's not pessimistic. In fact, I think it's quite optimistic to think that Rouge Park will not be bulldozed for condos!

An express bus route from Neilson to STC along the 401 (perhaps with shoulder bus lanes like on the 403) would be just as convenient for Malvern residents.

The government has the authority to sell it if they choose to do so. They wouldn't idly let people go homeless for the sake of preserving habitat for squirrels, chipmucks and titmice!

Wow...I just don't really know how to respond to this. Are there not homeless people now? Do you see anybody anywhere other than you suggesting that the government start selling parkland for development in order to solve the homelessness problem? Rouge Park will never be developed. There is so much overlapping legislation to ensure this that it can be considered an absolute fact. No city government, provincial government, or neighbourhood group would ever allow it, let alone advocate it.

That's because it was a subway map. DRL isn't a subway. At best I considered it as ICTS, though dedicated ROW streetcars or BRT is just as good. Combined local and express service is more than enough to cover 25,000 ppd which is less passengers than other extensions I suggested. I ridden route 25 often, various times through the day, never on a full bus, rust me this would work.

That's exactly my point! Why on earth would you have two full subway routes to serve 30,000 people in Malvern, and deem a route serving hundreds of thousands along don mills to be unworthy of subway?

Leaving aside the fact that I've ridden many crowded 25 buses, the purpose of a Don Mills line isn't merely to replace that bus route. It's primary utility is for people in Scarborough to transfer earlier than the Yonge line, thus relieving pressure on that route.

As for the waterfront what more could they want than what my Queen Line provides? I even included the Ferry Docks, I'd like to see a Front line do that. Queen really is the 'waterfront' line given it runs under the closest major artery to the lake east of Don Valley and west of Ronchesvalles. The CBD/Chinatown/Entertainment District/City Hall/Eaton Ctr. among other attractions will draw far more passengers than DRL. And like I said in an earlier post both lines could exist if interlined at Dufferin and Broadview.

Aside from the fact that I don't belive that the Eaton Centre would attract more people than Union Station, City Hall more than the SkyDome, or Chinatown more than the ACC, the areas you mentioned are all extremely well-served by existing routes. The simple reality is that subway routes with massive jogs like one from Queen down to Queens Quay and back up again don't make much sense. The additional travel time would make Queen impractical as an east-west route. If you really don't like the idea of a DRL, but want to serve the ferry docks, it would make much more sense to extend the YUS south so that it loops on Queens Quay instead of Front. That's not an terrible idea.

It does! I hate going into downtown now cause everytime your destination not right the YUS loop you suffer through endless waits for the streetcar which when finally arrives move at the speed of paint drying. The character of downtown doesn't have to change significantly because of a new line but like Sheppard before it don't expect nothing to happen. Gentrification in the West Queen West (Ossington area) would cause the rehabilitation of a deteriorated neighborhood which may result in an increase in housing prices and new lofts goin' up but otherwise...

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, but West Queen West is certainly experiencing increasing housing prices and new lofts going up without any subway line. I agree that the Queen streetcar line is very slow. I feel that it would be much better to run an express route along the waterfront to which people could transfer, though a Queen subway isn't necessarily always a bad idea. Its biggest issue is, as I said, with the fact that it encourages high-density development of existing stable neighbourhoods, which is something that nobody (the City or neighbourhood residents) wants.

Didn't the TTC recently desire 24/7 subway use. And how the capacity of a east-west line not deminish by adding three other east-lines lines ot take off the load? People from Jane-Finch no longer need Jane Stn, they'd use Sheppard. Thorncliffe Park or Don Mills residents would use Eglinton instead of Pape Stn. You know what people do when the train they're about to board is overcrowded? They wait 90 secs for the next one!

First of all, a situation where people are forced to wait for the next train is very undesirable. It results in dramatically longer stop times at stations which backs up trains and reduces capacity even further. I agree that your additional east-west routes would take some pressure off Bloor. You don't address any of the crowding issues on Yonge, however.

Ha, ha, ha! Maybe I should made my map even more detailed, practically every stop on the Queen line has multiple trip-generators right at it. Sheppard was a mistake but since it already there why not get as far in either direction as I can. It is a fantasy map. Everything I detailed were proposed by the city or TTC for years now. Even David Miller himself said he wants the Eglinton Line to run fron UTSC to the Airport. If only money weren't an issue.

It's easy to have lots of trip generators when your rougte zig-zags north and south so that a trip from Spadina to Jarvis would take close to half an hour. The TTC has certainly never proposed multiple subway lines to the zoo, nor have they proposed zig-zag routes that double or triple travel time.

There seems to be a misconception that everyone commuting in Toronto is destined for the core. The Eglinton line which bypasses the core completely is far mor useful for long-distance travel than heading down to Union, just to sit and wait, take the GO to far flung out-of-the-way stations which require several more bus routes to get home. So to answer an earlier post yes Ajax residents would gladly bypass downtown to get across Toronto quickly. DRL forces people into the core whether they want it or not.

Ajax residents obviously wouldn't be the ones taking the DRL. They'd take GO transit. If they really want to take local routes, they might be willing to take a 401 bus to STC and then transfer to the subway. There is no way that they would take a bus all the way up to North Pickering and then over through the winding, narrow roads of Rouge Park to Malvern.

Look my say all end all on the issue of a single DRL adjacent to underused Spadina Line which will take 20 yrs to reach capacity maybe and Don Mills corridor a stone's throw from several feeders yet eledgedly more vital then getting from border to border on one continuous transferless trip... B.R.T! If Jane, Don Mills or Vic Park but not both and McCowan-Markham (N of Sheppard McCowan, S of Sheppard Markham) had 'em there's little need for DRL, everywhere vital's on the line and all is right with the world. Ciao!

A route along a busy corridor, relieving an over-crowded line, and serving a number of dense neighbourhoods is quite obviously more vital than running from border to border, especially when land along that border is actual wilderness.

 

[socialwoe]

"Look, Malvern is not as far east as Kipling is west. Immediately to the west of Kipling is a million people. East of Malvern is Rouge Park, and east of that is agriculture."

So you admit even to Meadowvale, East Torontonians still get the short end of the stick. Of course that's still better than three lousy subway stops and a bonafided streetcar ROW I suppose. Scarborough and Durham will catch up with the west, its the mentality that GTA East won't thats delayed the process thus far.

"Malvern is a small community which will remain, likely forever, at the edge of the urban area."

Again with that pessimistic thinking. At least get RT far as Markham-Sheppard so NE residents bus trips are cut in half, I still believe the Sheppard East Line would pay off in the long run but...

" I think you aren't quite getting the meaning of the word "park". Nobody can buy a piece of Rouge Park."

The government has the authority to sell it if they choose to do so. They wouldn't idly let people go homeless for the sake of preserving habitat for squirrels, chipmucks and titmice!

"In your fantasy map you support two heavy rail corridors to serve 30,000 people in Malvern, but you don't support heavy rail to the hundreds of thousands of people along the Don Mills corridor and waterfront?"

That's because it was a subway map. DRL isn't a subway. At best I considered it as ICTS, though dedicated ROW streetcars or BRT is just as good. Combined local and express service is more than enough to cover 25,000 ppd which is less passengers than other extensions I suggested. I ridden route 25 often, various times through the day, never on a full bus, trust me this would work.

As for the waterfront what more could they want than what my Queen Line provides? I even included the Ferry Docks, I'd like to see a Front line do that. Queen really is the 'waterfront' line given it runs under the closest major artery to the lake east of Don Valley and west of Ronchesvalles. The CBD/Chinatown/Entertainment District/City Hall/Eaton Ctr. among other attractions will draw far more passengers than DRL. And like I said in an earlier post both lines could exist if interlined at Dufferin and Broadview.

"I don't think Queen needs a subway line to be "revitalized," unless by revitalized you mean "demolished and replaced with condos."

It does! I hate going into downtown now cause everytime your destination not right the YUS loop you suffer through endless waits for the streetcar which when finally arrives move at the speed of paint drying. The character of downtown doesn't have to change significantly because of a new line but like Sheppard before it don't expect nothing to happen. Gentrification in the West Queen West (Ossington area) would cause the rehabilitation of a deteriorated neighborhood which may result in an increase in housing prices and new lofts goin' up but otherwise...

"No, you don't. Your YUS, Sheppard, and Eglinton extensions will completely overwhelm the YUS loop at rush hour and your BD extensions will completely overwhelm that line, too. I guess you just won't be satisfied unless the subway lines are at crush load capacity 24/7 for their entire lengths."

Didn't the TTC recently desire 24/7 subway use. And how the capacity of a east-west line not deminish by adding three other east-lines lines ot take off the load? People from Jane-Finch no longer need Jane Stn, they'd use Sheppard. Thorncliffe Park or Don Mills residents would use Eglinton instead of Pape Stn. You know what people do when the train they're about to board is overcrowded? They wait 90 secs for the next one!

"while mr. woe's basic goal is to simply attempt to try and cover the 416 with subways... need and demand doesn't factor in to it."

Ha, ha, ha! Maybe I should made my map even more detailed, practically every stop on the Queen line has multiple trip-generators right at it. Sheppard was a mistake but since it already there why not get as far in either direction as I can. It is a fantasy map. Everything I detailed were proposed by the city or TTC for years now. Even David Miller himself said he wants the Eglinton Line to run fron UTSC to the Airport. If only money weren't an issue.

"That's why you can't simply build three new east-west lines and massive extensions to existing routes without dealing with capacity constraints in the centre of the city. Yonge's already close to full running through the downtown core. If you added several subway lines' worth of transfer traffic to the line, it would become inoperable."

There seems to be a misconception that everyone commuting in Toronto is destined for the core. The Eglinton line which bypasses the core completely is far mor useful for long-distance travel than heading down to Union, just to sit and wait, take the GO to far flung out-of-the-way stations which require several more bus routes to get home. So to answer an earlier post yes Ajax residents would gladly bypass downtown to get across Toronto quickly. DRL forces people into the core whether they want it or not.

"And you're talking about a well-connected network, with north-south connections and destination-oriented radial lines, not just attempting to cover every square inch in an "efficient" manner."

Look my say all end all on the issue of a single DRL adjacent to underused Spadina Line which will take 20 yrs to reach capacity maybe and Don Mills corridor a stone's throw from several feeders yet eledgedly more vital then getting from border to border on one continuous transferless trip... B.R.T! If Jane, Don Mills or Vic Park but not both and McCowan-Markham (N of Sheppard McCowan, S of Sheppard Markham) had 'em there's little need for DRL, everywhere vital's on the line and all is right with the world. Ciao!

"Socialwoe, your heart's definitely in the right place when it comes to subway construction. I'm a big supporter of more subways in the 416."

Thanks, glad to see I'm not alone. It's only a shame the general public doesn't have more of a say cause I'm certain most would want lines to the airport and in the direct core eons ahead of Lastman's folly or Sambora' s Vaughan fiasco.

 

[roch5220]

One of these days, when I log in from home (not work), I will upload my pics of streetcar/LRTs from mid/eastern europe. All of this talk expensive subways (when ridership doesn't warrent it yet) and cheaper BRT/Express Busses really could be solved with a solid tram/LRT street/ROW network. Especially considering the scarcity of funding dollars.

 

[spmarshall]

The ridership on the Spadina Line is building as well, where the trains are now packed in the morning, at least the ones that come in from Downsview, about as packed as the Yonge Line. Though it's half the number of trains as Yonge that are that full. The afternoon north from St. George still has lots of spare capacity, but it's building as well. It's respectable ridership.

DRL would help solve at least two major transit issues: Yonge Line Overcrowding (Yes, it does become overcrowded!) and poor East-West transit south of Bloor due to congestion. It is very much deserved.

LRT has its place though.

 

[roch5220]

Instead of a DRL subway (which I am a proponent for), you could have a LRT ROW (2 vehicles connected) inplace to replace the current route. I say it with a grain of salt though because to maximize the efficeincy of these ROWs, you have to allow people to board through all doors, which would require a GO like honour system (which I think they should move towards) for surface routes.