[socialwoe]

"I think your both crazy. Maybe we should dream about making a chocolate city."

Hello, look what board you're on! It's not crazy to have enthusiasm about improving Toronto's crumbling transit infrastructure, debate what routes deserve what mode of transportation, etc.

"If your say was heard and followed through, Lastman's folly would be extended to the Zoo and almost - but not quite - to the airport, and Sambora's fiasco would get built as planned. Or did you forget about that map you posted earlier?"

Yes but not before high priority subways/rt in the Downtown Core, to the airport/Peel border and BD conversion of SRT. That map's like gazing 100 years into the future, by then the city would (according to my optimism) be so well connected all that would be left is minor extensions into the suburbs.

"So you're against the Sheppard line, but added it to your map anyway, even though you think a DRL would be better, although it shouldn't be a subway."

And believe it or not THAT's the closest, surest way to ensure a DRL. Do you seriously think an oppurtunity like the situation we have now will ever come along again, i.e. to have an existing subway end conveniently right at Don Mills allowing for easier convincing the Powers That Be to have the line continue down DM instead of east on Sheppard? Yes I'd sacrifice a line to the Zoo (why is this place so darn hotly contested on this board?) to get DRL if, as you all emphasise, it is SOOOOOOOO important.

"Because you're not adding any new lines that go downtown other than Queen."

Queen with 'Front' wye is all the core needs. What subways on Dundas and College too? 000s will gladly bypass the core if it means getter to their destination faster.

"No, half the stuff you propose is not supported by planners or politicians."

Everything except maybe the Sheppard West, Lakeshore and Lawson/Port Union lines I've heard of from various sources. Lakeshore makes more sense than Queensway due to population (what IKEA needs another subway stop?) so please no jog-bashing. I don't care who proposed it first, Miller's in a position where he can effect actual change.

"For god's sake, who cares about the 6 people in Ajax commuting to Mississauga - I've already told you I'd build the Eglinton line...I've been calling for it on this forum forever."

Nope you dissed the notion of bringing the subway to Rouge Hill on this forum forever. Since you think only 6 people live in Ajax (Durham accounts for about one million residents) you obviously feel these people don't deserve their own alternative to expensive GO trains unlike your precious Markvillians.

"I'm baffled by what you mean here. Obviously Meadowvale doesn't have any subway access at all."

I meant if Network 2011 were a reality in 2011 and got the SRT to the Zoo.

"It's not pessimistic. In fact, I think it's quite optimistic to think that Rouge Park will not be bulldozed for condos! ... Are there not homeless people now? Do you see anybody anywhere other than you suggesting that the government start selling parkland for development in order to solve the homelessness problem?"

I meant to accomodate future residents, the GTA expected to have 10+ million residents by 2050, why you all act like everything today will remain so indefinitely? I didn't say to bulldoze Rouge Park or any park but as land gets scarce we may have no choice but look into this, at least at the peripherial areas.

"That's exactly my point! Why on earth would you have two full subway routes to serve 30,000 people in Malvern, and deem a route serving hundreds of thousands along don mills to be unworthy of subway?"

Don Mills- within range of YUS, BD, Sheppard and VIVA-YRT.
Malvern-isolated area in NE Toronto dependent on infrequent
cluster of bus routes miles away from RT yet alone
subway.
Solution= Don Mills to have VIVA-like BRT or LRT, I just don't
see the significance of wasting subways in a already
served area while a whole part of the city is stuck
with long, arduous bus routes.

" The simple reality is that subway routes with massive jogs like one from Queen down to Queens Quay and back up again don't make much sense. The additional travel time would make Queen impractical as an east-west route."

Since I posted the map I've reframed from the QQ jog, which is not to say QQ couldn't support a subway but a interlined Front diversion works just as well for the harbourfront with stops at Cherry, Distillery, St. Lawrence, Union, Skydome, Fort York, Strachan, and Exhibition. I'd still include the Chinatown jog and it wouldn't delay the line one bit.

"...it encourages high-density development of existing stable neighbourhoods, which is something that nobody (the City or neighbourhood residents) wants."

Good grief go to the Danforth. In spite of the subway, the area looks like something out of a 1950s dilapidated acid trip.

"It's easy to have lots of trip generators when your rougte zig-zags The TTC has certainly never proposed multiple subway lines to the zoo,"

It's one zig-zag only thanks to an interlined Front section of Queen. Fact check on google, its out there, albeit just one line as SRT, but its out there.

"Ajax residents obviously wouldn't be the ones taking the DRL."

Who says? It's still cheaper to ride TTC than GO. If the Rouge Hill Shuttle (DRT local) runs to Rouge Hill GO and en route intercepts with the Eglinton line, it is more likely economical commuters will use subways over trains.

"...quite obviously more vital than running from border to border, especially when land along that border is actual wilderness."

THAT WILL CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"Instead of a DRL subway (which I am a proponent for), you could have a LRT ROW (2 vehicles connected) inplace to replace the current route."

See DRL doesn't need to be a subway to work. If everything wasn't seen as a NIMBY or eye-sore issue, cheaper surface transit is, pardon the pun, the best route to fix Toronto.

 

[unimaginative2]

Without the thousand exclamation marks, no it won't. Rouge Park will never be developed.

Nope you dissed the notion of bringing the subway to Rouge Hill on this forum forever. Since you think only 6 people live in Ajax (Durham accounts for about one million residents) you obviously feel these people don't deserve their own alternative to expensive GO trains unlike your precious Markvillians.

There are probably literally a few hundred people travelling from Ajax to Mississauga. There are thousands travelling from Markville to Toronto. Subways get built where there is demand, not where the lines look prettiest on a map. I should also hope that a more sensible zone fare system will be devised by the time all these subway lines get built, so that the GO network is a much more financially attractive option.

I meant if Network 2011 were a reality in 2011 and got the SRT to the Zoo.

Network 2011 never, ever even remotely discussed extending the RT to the zoo.

I meant to accomodate future residents, the GTA expected to have 10+ million residents by 2050, why you all act like everything today will remain so indefinitely? I didn't say to bulldoze Rouge Park or any park but as land gets scarce we may have no choice but look into this, at least at the peripherial areas.

Bulldoze Rouge Park is exactly what you said, and I can guarantee that the conservation movement is entrenched enough that even if Toronto had 15 million people, we wouldn't be demolishing our parks to house them.

Solution= Don Mills to have VIVA-like BRT or LRT, I just don't
see the significance of wasting subways in a already
served area while a whole part of the city is stuck
with long, arduous bus routes.

Because that area isn't served very well, has hundreds of thousands of residents and jobs, and would generate actual ridership.

 

[M II A II R II K]

That has to be the illest subway map for the TTC I've seen posted.

But yea ther has to be more north/south routes, and perhaps connect the Queen line to the BD or Eglinton line in the east.

On a sidenote by 2090 they may be flying cars and busses that would make all these lines unnecessary.

:b

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Yes I'd sacrifice a line to the Zoo (why is this place so darn hotly contested on this board?) to get DRL

Would you sacrifice them both or just one? Remember, you recommend two lines to the Zoo.

Queen with 'Front' wye is all the core needs. What subways on Dundas and College too?

Not subways around downtown, subways to downtown, from outer areas (if Don Mills, Weston, etc., can be considered 'outer'). For the 5,6,7,8+ million people that currently or will soon live within reasonable reach by transit to downtown, you add no new tracks to get there. GO improvements, while they will undoubtedly be useful to many, can only do so much. Our downtown is large, thriving, and growing, and any transit improvements that get people there from the suburbs are good. A DRL would serve two busy corridors, provide two new routes downtown, and help circulate people all over south of Bloor...what's not to love about it? And it can be totally elevated once outside of downtown, which should make you happy.

Everything except maybe the Sheppard West, Lakeshore and Lawson/Port Union lines I've heard of from various sources.

Yes, Eglinton lines have been proposed, but only between a maximum of the airport and Kingston - that far, no farther, not to bloody Rouge Hill. Proposed Queen lines would not jog. Certainly, no one has proposed multiple routes out to Meadowvale or a subway to Rexdale that somehow sneaks through the back door and totally avoids Finch. Also, who has seriously proposed a subway to Square One? Even teh Eglinton line was always destined to meet the busway, not the actual airport.

Nope you dissed the notion of bringing the subway to Rouge Hill on this forum forever. Since you think only 6 people live in Ajax (Durham accounts for about one million residents) you obviously feel these people don't deserve their own alternative to expensive GO trains unlike your precious Markvillians.

I'm not gonna bother with this paragraph.
...meh, maybe I will.

1. Yes, a subway to Rouge Hill is a terrible idea.
2. Rouge Hill to Mississauga by subway would be, what, 90 minutes each way? Who would travel in from Ajax for the privilege of wasting all day in a subway car?
3. Durham will hit 1 million people in 2030, but you can subtract most of that million from the pool of potential riders simply because they're too far away.
4. That leaves about 400,000 people in Pickering and Ajax as just barely close enough - yet Markham will have the same number of people and be both closer to Toronto and better connected.

I meant if Network 2011 were a reality in 2011 and got the SRT to the Zoo.

I bet you've never even been to the Zoo. Well, I've been there dozens of, maybe 50, times, and I can tell you with certainty that unless the Zoo manages to acquire a glow in the dark, flying Stegosaurus that shits sunshine, puppies, and gold bullion every half hour, the Zoo will never warrant one subway, let alone two. What happens to your two lines when the Zoo is closed? Who would ride them at night? Who would ride them into the city in the morning while the teeming masses are riding out to gawk at bison and lemurs? As I said before, even if Zoo attendance triples and every single visitor takes the subway, that's still not nearly enough riders.

No, the Rouge Park will never be developed. No, it won't. And, no, there won't be enough people riding in from more distant areas. No, there won't.

I'd still include the Chinatown jog and it wouldn't delay the line one bit.

Yes, it would. The turns required between John and Bathurst would slow trains to a crawl. The near-comical overabundance of stations would also delay people.

Good grief go to the Danforth. In spite of the subway, the area looks like something out of a 1950s dilapidated acid trip.

Greektown would be annihilated by condo redevelopments in seconds if it was allowed to happen. Unless you want that to happen, so you can replace it all with dense subdivisions à la Morningside Heights.

Fact check on google, its out there, albeit just one line as SRT, but its out there.

It's not out there, and even if it was (which it's not) it's from an era when the province was interested in foisting the stupid thing on unsuspecting Malvern as a photo-op project, back before Rouge Park was fully protected.

Who says? It's still cheaper to ride TTC than GO. If the Rouge Hill Shuttle (DRT local) runs to Rouge Hill GO and en route intercepts with the Eglinton line, it is more likely economical commuters will use subways over trains.

Just imagine how ridiculously long it would take to get across the city that way. You seem confidant that we have a greater ability to build 100km of suburban subways than to integrate TTC fares with GO fares.

THAT WILL CHANGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No, it won't. Anyway, there's plenty of reasons why growth should and will be encouraged to occur in other parts of the GTA and beyond.

 

[socialwoe]

Sorry for the long posts.

Without the thousand exclamation marks, no it won't. Rouge Park will never be developed.

I was reffering to Long Branch and Rouge Hill, Steeles and the Lakeshore region (Bluffs, Cliffside, Beaches, Central Harbourfront, Swansea, Mimico, New Toronto, Long Branch). As for Rouge Park, if existing train tracks run through the park already its no stretch to convert one of these for future Pickering Airport ROW without a single tree chopped down (or would you rather building the subway out to Brock Rd then directly up, would my plans seem as ludacris then?).

Network 2011 never, ever even remotely discussed extending the RT to the zoo.

What exactly did it say then? I distinctly recall SRT continuing into Malvern via Midtown CN from Sheppard East Stn. to Finch and Morningside. From there you're practically at the Zoo anyway but a short surface ROW adjacent Old Finch wouldn't kill anyone.

Bulldoze Rouge Park is exactly what you said

Nope. It's Scarberian who said it'd take doing that to support two subway lines into Malvern. The most damage to Rouge would be a 700m surface ROW from Littles Rd to Zoo Entrance. This could even be on Zoo property affecting Rouge Park none-so-ever.

even if Toronto had 15 million people, we wouldn't be demolishing our parks to house them.

Maybe we should do like the UAE and build artificial islands to house them. Oh wait, Toronto Islanders are the laughing stock of our city.

Would you sacrifice them both or just one? Remember, you recommend two lines to the Zoo.

Neither! If East Scarborough can never support subways as you say, upgrade and maintain SRT and have it run the gambit to the Zoo and back towards Fairview.

provide two new routes downtown, and help circulate people all over south of Bloor...what's not to love about it? And it can be totally elevated once outside of downtown, which should make you happy.

Someone obviously hasn't been paying attention. I'm all for Front now just as a surface line in the core and interlined with Queen at least initally. Queen would draw as many if not more people than just one Front line largely cut off by the train corridor. Introducing it as an express line first during AM/PM rush ensures the most usage for it. Screw the few condo owners at Spadina, they really need 24/7 express service?

Yes, Eglinton lines have been proposed, but only between a maximum of the airport and Kingston - that far, no farther, not to bloody Rouge Hill.

Didn't I just explain all this? Remember my timeline? Rouge Hill is the final thing I proposed built in the year 2090! I told you once the line goes to Morningside current ppd in the West Hill area justifies a subway and would go along way in resolving subway east-west inequity. Getting it up to UTSC/HIghland Creek is only better due to opening up Ellesmere corridor/Centenary Hospital/2 major campuses/Hwy 2 base to mass transit.

Also, who has seriously proposed a subway to Square One? Even teh Eglinton line was always destined to meet the busway, not the actual airport.

Eh? If the subway entered Mississauga where the heck would it go? I was satisfied with putting regional terminals at Long Branch, Sherway, Pearson and Humber College to placate the suburbs with the Pearson Transit Tower (seriously why hasn't anyone commented on that piece of ingenuity yet?) accomadating GTA routes spanning from Hamilton to Oshawa, but it was the attitude of this board that got me thinking a last minute Peel addition to the map wouldn't be such a bad idea. You'd ditch 60,000 and growing daily users of the airport at Eglinton and Renforth?

Yes, a subway to Rouge Hill is a terrible idea.

No, a subway to Toronto's easternmost transit hub/new housing development/tons of vacant salivating to be developed/coastal beach location is a terrific idea.

What happens to your two lines when the Zoo is closed? Who would ride them at night? Who would ride them into the city in the morning while the teeming masses are riding out to gawk at bison and lemurs?

Remember that inner loop? After 10:00 p.m. trains would short turn at Sheppard East Stn., both levels. Again please refraim from thinking the Zoo is the end-route, if anything it's the middle. And there's no such thing as a golden puppy shitting, glow in the dark, flying dinosaur. That went extinct around the same time as your archaic way of thinking :rollin !

The near-comical overabundance of stations would also delay people.

It's frigin' Downtown! If the Queen Line replaces a streetcar which stops at least 7-8 times between concession roads, that should tell you spacing at half-concessions isn't overabundance. The Queen West Ten (Ronci, Jameson, Dufferin, Dovercourt, Shaw, Niagara, Bathurst, Spadina, John, Osgoode) is not alot considering the 10+ min intervals to takes to walk between them. Knowing you you'd think Yonge, Bathurst and Dufferin only were good enough spacing, yikes!

Greektown would be annihilated by condo redevelopments in seconds if it was allowed to happen. Unless you want that to happen

I do not, but I used Danforth as an example to show you how mass transit would not ruin the make-up of neighbourhoods but rather enhance them. Queen deserves better than 20-30 min bus rides from Bloor, if that results in a few condos so be it.

it's from an era when the province was interested in foisting the stupid thing on unsuspecting Malvern as a photo-op project

Well if you say so. Just imagine what Malvern would look like today had it gone through though? I fathom your precious park would be a goner by now.

Just imagine how ridiculously long it would take to get across the city that way. You seem confidant that we have a greater ability to build 100km of suburban subways than to integrate TTC fares with GO fares.

If even one line allowed Durham to Peel service that's extremely more effective and efficient than the 5-6 transfer points some have to contend with today, which is far more time-consuming than a 90-minute comparative zoom through the midriff. If GO hasn't figured out smartcards by now yes I'm a tad prehensive about their competance to intergrate fares.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

You're immune to logic, reason, facts, figures, maps, mad skillz, insults, taunting, persuasion, coercion, reverse psychology, common sense, systematic refutations and rebuttals, humiliation, and reality, so I guess you win.

Congratulations! Your reward is to subsidize the operating cost of all these questionable subway expansions since they clearly will not generate any fare revenue.

"If even one line allowed Durham to Peel service that's extremely more effective and efficient than the 5-6 transfer points some have to contend with today, which is far more time-consuming than a 90-minute comparative zoom through the midriff."

If by 90 minute zoom you mean a ride on GO. Oh wait, you can do that now. Nah, let's spend $30 billion on a subway to accomplish the same thing, only slower. Good stuff! Jolly good stuff! Capital sport, this 'subway' plan of yours.

"Queen deserves better than 20-30 min bus rides from Bloor"

Very little of what you say makes any sense. 30 minutes on a bus from Bloor to Queen? I can walk that in 20.

"That went extinct around the same time as your archaic way of thinking"

You're the one that wants to expand the SRT (a technology they're going to replace) into Rouge Park (an area that's been protected for years). You're living in 1985. What's worse, the TTC is, too.

"If the subway entered Mississauga where the heck would it go?"

Dixie, probably? I don't think anyone has ever seriously tried to get it extended to Square One - Mississauga doesn't even want it. You'd think it would go to Square One but you'd have thought the Spadina line would have gone to York or the Danforth line to STC or the Yonge line to Steeles or the Sheppard line to Downsview and/or STC.

"Remember my timeline? Rouge Hill is the final thing I proposed built in the year 2090!"

Even if Rouge Hill was on a separate continent and it drifted a few km closer by 2090, it would still be a silly idea.

 

[roch5220]

Hello, look what board you're on! It's not crazy to have enthusiasm about improving Toronto's crumbling transit infrastructure, debate what routes deserve what mode of transportation, etc.

Having fantasy subway maps is one thing, but debating the need for tens of billions in new subway construction isn't "improving Toronto's crumbling transit infrastructure". If anything, its only going to make the problem worse as through your plans, there will be an even more massive operating deficit and TTC infrastructure will crumble even further (probably matching NYC's level in 30 years) when there will be even less maintenance/upkeep getting done.

If you look at the RTES report, no bus routes even warrented upgrade to streetcar execpt for Finch. Ridership has increased since then, but not to the levels of laying new subway. A new DRL does make sense in my opinion especially when there will always be the motiviation (political + development) to extend the yonge line north, most likely past hwy 7 (in the timing of our current generation). So it makes sence to build in anticipation for that. But for other areas in Toronto, surface ROW routes would easily provide capacity (even excess capacity) to a rapid transit grid throughout the whole city.

In terms of funding, the DRL probably isn't reality in our generation, so the next practical $$$$ approach whould be an LRT/double tram ROW replacing the existing streetcar street route.

 

[cdl42]

If you look at the RTES report, no bus routes even warrented upgrade to streetcar execpt for Finch.

The RTES says no such thing. It doesn't even talk about Light Rail upgrades; it's a subway expansion document.

 

[roch5220]

Thanks for making me dizzy (scanning reports to find the correct one). Your right, got my reference wrong. One of the reports that analyze surface routes is the 2003 riderhsip growth strategy. The other report that anaylzied each bus route for peak time ridership for upgrading to streetcar, I've stopped looking for, but appendix A6 in the ridership report states similar findings. Even though it just focuses on major corridors, there are not many current surface routes that are expected to hit capacity by 2011 except for the already proposed yorkU extension, Finch-Steeles, the gap between the stub sheppard line and STC, and Kipling station to Etobicoke creek.

Hence the undertaking of constructing of tens of billions dollars in subway construction if it were to be done, would only be for City ego and not based upon actual need or demand. Transit has to be improved, which is why I agree with Miller in focussing on the street surface route grid (via ROWs).

The RTES actually does discuss BRT and LRT (ie. Rapid Transit ES), but not in the detailed context analysis (via peak ridership analysis of surface routes) that I inferred.

You could of just pointed out I am referring to the wrong report instead - as I know you've been on this board for a couple of years, and you've seen past discussions on mutliple TTC reports that detailed what I am talking about.

 

[cdl42]

I would have but I really wasn't sure what report you were referring to. The only other one I could think of was the streetcar network explansion study that looked at converting downtown routes like Coxwell and Dufferin to streetcar, but that doesn't cover Finch. Didn't even think of the Ridership Growth Strategy.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Part of the problem is all of the various reports - there's no big master plan for the future. There's no conclusive "THIS IS WHAT WERE GOING TO DO:"

Oh, and I sincerely don't see how transit on Finch would be improved by a streetcar when articulated buses and a real rocket-express option can improve capacity (though Finch is not massively overcrowded) and travel times (which are almost always good) for a pittance.

 

[ahrvojic]

What would be the point entering Peel just to serve a GO station, worse yet a station with zero development/urban sprawl for miles around? Peel doesn't want it, news flash I don't either, 4 border area regional terminals (Long Branch/Sherway/Pearson/Humber College) is just as good as one money pit with virtually nothing between Sherway and Hurontario.

This casts even more doubt that you've actually been anywhere in the GTA outside of your own neighbourhood. Are you kidding me?

 

[unimaginative2]

The fact you consider residents east of McCowan as living on a separate continent yet have no desire to intergrate this large population is the REAL silly idea. I've already explained, countless times its relevance so I'll only add this: Malvern and Lawson-Port Union can't possibly do any worse as subway lines than the Spadina Line.

Umm...there are hundreds of thousands of residents living immediately north of the Spadina line, and a million to the west. Malvern has 30,000 people, with wilderness which will always remain wilderness beyond it. Port Union has about the same number, with the Duffins Rouge agricultural preserve and Rouge river to the east, cutting it off from any hinterland in Durham. I would say that Spadina is a much better route for a subway, and that's not saying much.

At least NYC has like 500 stations including stops through the ghetto, multiple ones to JFK, even the minor airports are covered.

There are no subway lines at all to JFK, LaGuardia, Newark, or even Teterboro. There was, in the last year, an Airtrain SRT-type system connecting Jamaica and Howard Beach stations to JFK. There's nothing at all to LGA, and Newark has a shuttle to the commuter line.

So while we're paying $0.25 more for the 1000 daily users of Bessarion Stn., several thousand people as far away as Conneticutt (sp?) benefit from NYC's massive transit network.

People do not take the subway to Connecticut. They take Metro North, and then connect to the subway at Grand Central. That's exactly the model we should follow in Toronto: people take frequent GO service from Ajax or whatever to the fare-integrated subway, then connect to reach their final destination.

I may be a novice urban planner but I can confidently state long-distance heavy-rail public transit would work for Toronto, just as well if not better than peak only GO service.

Do you not think that by 2090, if the money were available for your kind of subway expansion, GO will offer service beyond the peak hours? Hell, they already do out to Durham.

 

[socialwoe]

"You're immune to logic, reason, facts, figures, maps, mad skillz, insults, taunting, persuasion, coercion, reverse psychology, common sense, systematic refutations and rebuttals, humiliation, and reality, so I guess you win."

Great, I suspected as much malicious venom was the fuel behind your posts. It's been quite entertaining trying to debunk your theories and 'mad skillz' though!

"Your reward is to subsidize the operating cost of all these questionable subway expansions since they clearly will not generate any fare revenue."

It's a pity we've learned nothing from our European and American counterarts. It's time for the federal and provincial levels to pull their weight. Some US cities get 50-75% funding for subway building and maintainence costs from the gov't. Ticket sales are irrelevant. Were Canada's largest city, economic capital, port of entry for 000s of newcomers, yet instead of funding our own transit system our taxes are being deffered to pay for RTs in Western Canada. That's outrageous!

"If by 90 minute zoom you mean a ride on GO. Oh wait, you can do that now. Nah, let's spend $30 billion on a subway to accomplish the same thing, only slower."

I meant the Eglinton Line, try to ride on a GO during non-peak hours, you'll wind up at the mercy of endless transfer points diverting your commute ever less swiftly than a dedicated all-day subway service. And it wouldn't cost $30 billion, especially if someone 40 years ago had the foresight to invest in a strategically located line that'd span Toronto and be a gateway for the suburbs. But alas even one billion's hard to come by these days.

"30 minutes on a bus from Bloor to Queen?"

Okay maybe 30 mins was an exaggeration but it's very realistic to say it takes 20 mins to get from BD to Queen or further south between stopping every few secs for passengers, stop lights, lane restrictions, unforseen delays, etc.

"You're the one that wants to expand the SRT... You're living in 1985. What's worse, the TTC is, too."

You'd subtract 4 RT stations and the likelihood of expansion beyond STC to get two lousy subways at far flung Brimley/Lawrence? and one single STC stop to serve everywhere from Brimley to Bellamy, Progress to Ellesmere when the expected ppd for this under 8000/hr? And remember SRT conversion was prioritized behind Vaughan expansion which itself is in jeopardy, and yet as you've said in earlier posts SRT should've been a subway from the start when STC much like Malvern today was just an open field. Whose living in the past again? SRT in the temporal, gets us mass transit to more places in the long term. Even some of the 'subways' on my map would be surface or elevated for cost-cutting and distance running purposes.

"Dixie, probably? I don't think anyone has ever seriously tried to get it extended to Square One - Mississauga doesn't even want it."

What would be the point entering Peel just to serve a GO station, worse yet a station with zero development/urban sprawl for miles around? Peel doesn't want it, news flash I don't either, 4 border area regional terminals (Long Branch/Sherway/Pearson/Humber College) is just as good as one money pit with virtually nothing between Sherway and Hurontario. I just included this extension to placate anyone who'd wonder why Mississauga didn't get a subway extension but East Scarborough did thinking they'd see distance:area equity as a good thing, dang was I wrong!

"Even if Rouge Hill was on a separate continent and it drifted a few km closer by 2090, it would still be a silly idea."

The fact you consider residents east of McCowan as living on a separate continent yet have no desire to intergrate this large population is the REAL silly idea. I've already explained, countless times its relevance so I'll only add this: Malvern and Lawson-Port Union can't possibly do any worse as subway lines than the Spadina Line.

"Part of the problem is all of the various reports - there's no big master plan for the future. There's no conclusive "THIS IS WHAT WERE GOING TO DO:"

Cue: Socialwoe for TTC Head :evil !

"Having fantasy subway maps is one thing, but debating the need for tens of billions in new subway construction isn't "improving Toronto's crumbling transit infrastructure".

At least NYC has like 500 stations including stops through the ghetto, multiple ones to JFK, even the minor airports are covered. Whereas NYC's already there, we're catching up at best. More people would ride the TTC if it were in their neck of the woods, hence it's no surprise there's a deficit because it's not. So while we're paying $0.25 more for the 1000 daily users of Bessarion Stn., several thousand people as far away as Conneticutt (sp?) benefit from NYC's massive transit network. I may be a novice urban planner but I can confidently state long-distance heavy-rail public transit would work for Toronto, just as well if not better than peak only GO service.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

It's a pity we've learned nothing from our European and American counterarts.

Do they build multiple subway lines out to protected parkland on the suburban fringe of the city?

I meant the Eglinton Line, try to ride on a GO during non-peak hours, you'll wind up at the mercy of endless transfer points diverting your commute ever less swiftly than a dedicated all-day subway service.

So now we need to worry about three Ajax housewives who so desperately need a transfer-free transit option to the Dixie Outlet Mall at 2pm? Again, GO can do that - it already does that.

Yet, if I were to suggest a subway between Scarborough and Markham along an undeniably dense and busy corridor such as Warden or McCowan, you'd go berserk because there's no 'development' there.

You'd subtract 4 RT stations and the likelihood of expansion beyond STC to get two lousy subways at far flung Brimley/Lawrence?

This paragraph proves you've never been to Scarborough. You think losing Ellesmere station is a bad thing? And poor Midland station patrons, they'll be forced to stay on the 57 longer, all the way to Kennedy station (even though the 57 is faster than the RT). If you've read anything I've posted in the past, you'd know I do not support a subway station at Brimley & Lawrence - it would go either at Midland or McCowan.

The fact you consider residents east of McCowan as living on a separate continent yet have no desire to intergrate this large population is the REAL silly idea. I've already explained, countless times its relevance so I'll only add this: Malvern and Lawson-Port Union can't possibly do any worse as subway lines than the Spadina Line.

Oh, they'll do much worse. I didn't say subways should never be extended east of McCowan, anyway, just that your obsession with bringing transit to Malvern is not based on reality. STC is a good place to stop, for now. The Zoo and Rouge Hill will never be good places to extend the subway to.

Cue: Socialwoe for TTC Head

Your first order of business would be to create a ridiculous subway map, then say you don't actually support half of it, but attack anyone who tries to show you the err of your ways. You gave it an 84 year timeline but refuse to believe GO fares might be integrated by then, or that GO will be at all useful for 905ers or outer 416ers (they need subways more than the central areas do!) or that development might seriously alter the landscape (you do think the Rouge Park will be atlered, though).