[unimaginative2]

Hyperbole much? Less than one-third of the world has a system remotely as advanced as our's. Even if tickets and tokens were made obcelete, there'll always be a group of people who just like paying cash up front (VIVA take note) no hassle.

What other international systems have you ridden? Virtually all of them these days have gone with either smart cards or they have a proof-of-payment system.

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>include the wonderful world of regional rail. Just because it isn't done in your experience in Toronto doesn't mean that it can't have integrated fares. Hell, it can even be run by the same transit authority, believe it

<hr></blockquote><!--EZCODE QUOTE END-->

How 'bout letting transfer holders get a free ride? It's not too much to ask. The expectation of paying double fares within the 416 is a valid reason why more people don't ride it.[/quote]

Oh okay, I get it. You're not familiar with the term integrated fares. What it means is that you pay the same fare to ride both services.

Please, the shelters they have at GO stops couldn't keep an unsheared sheep warm! Wind chill factors, snow seeping in, it's very disconcerting. And FYI only enclosed structures can be climate controlled .

It's so baffling that you have all these wild ideas about subway construction criss-crossing the city, but you can't even conceieve of a different design for stations. I didn't say the shelters they have now. I said that an important part of a decent regional rail system in a climate like ours is that they be decently enclosed and climate-controlled.

They do for several stops mainly Rouge Hill and Long Branch. Some like Old Cummer and York U however will always be walk-ins territory.

Why? If the service is similar to decent regional rail (please at least wikipedia S-Bahn or RER before you post any more on the subject), there's no reason why the local bus routes can't feed those stops.

Well I got one better. I don't live in the Beaches nor Rouge Hill nor Malvern nor Long Branch nor Rexdale nor VCC nor Richmond Hill and I'll never even use half these lines. So what trumps divinity?...supremacy !

That's why he said "By your standards."

Well thankfully other posters are in agreeance with me on this one so your opinion on mine is now worthless to me too. There's too many things wrong with GO to hash out in just one blurb, making my so-called attempt to displace them not so transwank afterall !

socialwoe, posters who have been criticizing GO do not want to replace the system with endless subways. What most would like (aside from basic reliability of the existing service) is decent regional rail.

 

[adma]

Look, even a Wendell Cox type might have his own remedy to a dysfunctional GO, i.e. more highways...

 

[scarberiankhatru]

There are also a lot more people working near Eglinton/Renforth than at Airport/Carlingview.

Very sneaky...there's more people working near Carlingview than at Eglinton/Renforth. Anyway, I'm not even a huge fan of the Eglinton West line...now that Rae's gone who's calling for it? A DRL up the Weston corridor would mean an Eglinton West couldn't be justified. Eglinton has no room for redevelopment, it wouldn't go to the airport, it'd connect with a busway of very dubious utility, etc.

The Mississauga Transitway was originally planned to meet up with the Eglinton subway, not the other way atound.

I know, but now that Bob Rae's gone, "connection to the busway" is no reason to keep the hope alive.

Anyways, I prefer to think of the GTA as whole instead of the City of Toronto as island within itself, but that's just me.

Considering the GTA as a whole means prioritizing, and Eglinton West is not at all a priority...a subway that terminates at one of the world's largest highway interchanges? I mean, c'mon!

See the value of more east-west lines now?

You're reigniting my interest in eugenics. I'd build 4 east/west lines - you'd build 3. But back to the point of your rambling paragraph: traffic and riders being equal (which they never are when comparing central areas with outer areas), the longer it is, the less reliable it is. Even if a route like Islington was combined north and south of Bloor, it'd have to stop at the subway. If you intend for your subway plan to replace buses city-wide, why do you ignore most of the busiest corridors like Jane, Don Mills, and Finch?

Putting everything at a single stop means more people delayed 5-10 mins walking it down or up to Mortimer and O'connor.

All three of these streets are 4 blocks apart from each other...you want your O'Connor station mezzanine to be 4 blocks long to serve Cosburn but if someone must walk 4 blocks up from Mortimer it's an unbearable trek?

A dedicated GO train out as far as Kingston could take some pressure off of VIA, allowing for quicker travel on the corridor between Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa.

It could go to Guelph, Kitchener, Niagara, etc., too. I took the GO bus home from Guelph once - took 5 hours door to door. Hmm, a subway could probably do it in less than 4...

 

[spmarshall]

A dedicated GO train out as far as Kingston could take some pressure off of VIA, allowing for quicker travel on the corridor between Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa.

I would not relish sitting on a slow, uncomfortable, squeaky GO train all the way to Belleville or Woodstock for 2-3 hours.

VIA's LRC coaches puleed by one of the newer locomotives can go up to 100 MPH, its coaches are meant for intercity service. GO could go up to 80 MPH (but is not usually this fast due to station stops and track conditions). Even in express service, GO isn't set up for high speeds.

GO coaches are good enough for high volumes and trips of no more than an hour. Something in between GO and VIA might be a great idea for places like Kitchener, Niagara, Peterborough, etc. DMUs with decent comfort would work well.

 

[unimaginative2]

The RER in Paris and various German S-Bahns go out a little less far than GO does now. I'd love to see a regional rail service (15-20 minute headways) serving the inner 905 suburbs, and a slightly less-frequent (perhaps hourly or a bit better) service out as far as St. Catharines, Kitchener, Barrie, and perhaps Northumberland County.

 

[bizorky]

I would not relish sitting on a slow, uncomfortable, squeaky GO train all the way to Belleville or Woodstock for 2-3 hours.

I was not thinking of the contemporary rolling stock. Much would have to be changed if such an extended service was to be put in place, but a better rail service could be a result.

As a frequent user of VIA, I find the trip is too often slowed by stops where one lone commuter exits or enters the train. I am always more than a little surprised at how many people take VIA 1 from Toronto to Port Hope, for example. I think these cities and towns could receive more frequent service with smaller trains, and that such service would be better served by a dedicated regional rail system.

 

[socialwoe]

What it means is that you pay the same fare to ride both services.

Hopefully that means $2.75 and not a dime more :lol !

there's no reason why the local bus routes can't feed those stops.

The Finch bus stops right in front of the station just before Leslie. What more could commuters possibly want? Oh I know, the bus to sprout claws or wings to get up that enbankment. York U already gets York Region service and occasionally the 117 passes nearby too.

socialwoe, posters who have been criticizing GO do not want to replace the system with endless subways. What most would like (aside from basic reliability of the existing service) is decent regional rail.

They're not endless and running subways out to the far-flung GO stops actually improves reliability on a whole. Bus service can't compare to subways for shuttling passengers in and not every GO commuter wants Union. Diverting some commuters through additonal lines may in fact speed up commutes, revitalize run-down areas and make the city as a whole more accessible. But if you hail this 'regional rail' thing as so much better, I'll wait before I pass any more judgement.

Very sneaky...there's more people working near Carlingview than at Eglinton/Renforth. Anyway, I'm not even a huge fan of the Eglinton West line...now that Rae's gone who's calling for it? A DRL up the Weston corridor would mean an Eglinton West couldn't be justified. Eglinton has no room for redevelopment, it wouldn't go to the airport, it'd connect with a busway of very dubious utility, etc.

If looking at the ACC objectively a Orbitor/Eglinton stop is of far greater use to employees than a Renforth one. Carlingview has so much going for it though: Skyway Industrial, golf course, hotel block, congress centres, shuttle to International Centre/Malton GO. Eglinton couldn't be justifiied? Again what's your beef with MT Busway? Anyway much to the sojourn of intermediate populations, the DRL could easy well run along Eglinton west of Mount Dennis and would a speedier option than hitting Dixon earlier than MG or following Geogretown GO+wye to the airport.

I know, but now that Bob Rae's gone, "connection to the busway" is no reason to keep the hope alive.

Why would buses want to connect there anyway? An on-site terminus at airport property connecting multiple modes of transit (subway, commuter train, express train, regional buses) is far superior than the alternative. But Eglinton, even an abridged form, is the best and most obvious route to the airport, maybe even to MCC.

a subway that terminates at one of the world's largest highway interchanges? I mean, c'mon!

:rollin !
Yes it's unfortunate 60,000 commuters a day get short-changed because someone fails to realize the highway's there to accomodate those who can't get a direct public transit route to the core so they must be driven there! I bet all the Yorkdale Mall users (or Allen Exwy pedestrians in general) must be so scared to acess those stations. Maybe that's why you disapprove of a Hwy 4/27 line!

You're reigniting my interest in eugenics.

It'd probably take eugenics to build an army of mindless clone minions to construct my subway lines on the cheap so we can see real transit results within our lifetimes :evil !

I'd build 4 east/west lines - you'd build 3.

I'd hardly consider DRL, a east-west line when the majority of it faces vertically.

the longer it is, the less reliable it is. Even if a route like Islington was combined north and south of Bloor, it'd have to stop at the subway.

Yes but you know how frustrating it is to stand there in an outdoor bunker (Warden/VP/Islington) waiting for eons of 20 mins for a 69, 12 or 111 when their northern cousins show up every 5 mins or less? The split narrative helps no one casue when one direction gets service it's usually at the expense of the other.

you want your O'Connor station mezzanine to be 4 blocks long to serve Cosburn but if someone must walk 4 blocks up from Mortimer it's an unbearable trek?

Now you're ticking me off! Ever heard of Linesmore or Quebec or the far aback locations of VP/Warden/Kennedy? Subway stops don't have to be exactly at their namesakes to be of use to commuters seeking those streets. If centered at Gamble Ave. the walk would be nanoseconds to an entrance just north of Cosburn. Your mission to short-change every reasonable/well-deserved stop cause it conflicts with your km apart or greater scheme is horrendous, ridiculous, proposterous >: !!!!!!!

It could go to Guelph, Kitchener, Niagara, etc., too. I took the GO bus home from Guelph once - took 5 hours door to door. Hmm, a subway could probably do it in less than 4...

Yes that's my point exactly. Out of the AM/PM rush it's an almost all-day journey just to get to and from Toronto. Once I went to Barrie departing from Union GO around 9:00 a.m. and the bus didn't arrive there 'til close to 1:00 yet had I drove it only would've been an hour.

 

[unimaginative2]

My father's friend is semi-retired and has moved out to a farm in the Port Hope area. He works in Toronto one or two days a week and takes VIA. He also uses it for his trips to Ottawa once or twice a month. For him, it's quite ideal and very comfortable. He never flies within the corridor anymore. The only issue he has is with frequency, since there's only about one train a day to Port Hope and a couple more to Cobourg.

Hopefully that means $2.75 and not a dime more !

What it would mean is fare zones. I should hope that it would be quite a bit less than $2.75 within the downtown area. It would probably be about the same or maybe a little bit more from Scarborough or Thornhill to Downtown, and then probably around $3.25 or a little bit more out to places like Markham or Pickering.

The Finch bus stops right in front of the station just before Leslie. What more could commuters possibly want? Oh I know, the bus to sprout claws or wings to get up that enbankment. York U already gets York Region service and occasionally the 117 passes nearby too.

Clearly other routes from the area could be routed in, including the Cummer. Obviously the bigger issue is just the frequency on the line. If it were every 20 minute service, it would be a much more popular spot for transfers from the local bus routes.

They're not endless and running subways out to the far-flung GO stops actually improves reliability on a whole. Bus service can't compare to subways for shuttling passengers in and not every GO commuter wants Union. Diverting some commuters through additonal lines may in fact speed up commutes, revitalize run-down areas and make the city as a whole more accessible. But if you hail this 'regional rail' thing as so much better, I'll wait before I pass any more judgement.

Google S-Bahn and RER! Do it before your next post! If it were regional rail, they wouldn't all be going to Union.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I bet all the Yorkdale Mall users (or Allen Exwy pedestrians in general) must be so scared to acess those stations.

There's no mall at the 427/401.

But Eglinton, even an abridged form, is the best and most obvious route to the airport, maybe even to MCC.

The Weston line is the best and most obvious way to hit the airport.

It'd probably take eugenics to build an army of mindless clone minions to construct my subway lines on the cheap so we can see real transit results within our lifetimes

No, we'd have to do what the Persian Gulf does - import cheap labourers from the subcontinent.

I'd hardly consider DRL, a east-west line when the majority of it faces vertically.

How many people exclusively travel east/west or north/south? The DRL can take them across downtown and then up to the suburbs without switching trains...it's marvelous.

 

[socialwoe]

What it would mean is fare zones. I should hope that it would be quite a bit less than $2.75 within the downtown area. It would probably be about the same or maybe a little bit more from Scarborough or Thornhill to Downtown

Inner 416 would be universally equal in price, zoning from within is only a deterant to East Enders from using it.

If it were every 20 minute service, it would be a much more popular spot for transfers from the local bus routes.

Yeah who'd expect an express train service to run infrequently through most of the day making bus+subway 10x faster and reliable?! GO's become a major joke.

Google S-Bahn and RER! Do it before your next post! If it were regional rail, they wouldn't all be going to Union.

I did and Wikipedia classifies GO as a S-Bahn service! Sorry :b ! The only preexisting alternative route through the city is Midtown which obviously can't support the volume, density and 30mins or less reliabilty required to make it a smash success. You'd have to construct new train lines, most likely through the central and northern parts of the city to accomadate the exurban passenger nodes/trippers. Think NIMBYs oppose subways?... try surface rail bisecting the city with underpasses/brigdes sprouting up everywhere.

There's no mall at the 427/401.

God you're so dense! What part of 60,000 commuters a day don't you get? Again as with Scarborough why have to travel further north if your destination's south? You think my subway plans are circuitous yet you want a line to Pearson head all the way up to Woodbine before veering south when a line from Kipling via 427/Renforth would be only 10 mins away. Eglinton's got everything you'd want of a subway...km apart spacing. That hwy interchange, less minor intermediate stops! Get a clue will you!

The Weston line is the best and most obvious way to hit the airport.

Of the 4-5 possible gateways to Pearson, that would be by far the worst. Is it any wonder why Blue 22 was cancelled!

No, we'd have to do what the Persian Gulf does - import cheap labourers from the subcontinent.

Great, I bet you'd indenture Inuit from the iceflows of Nunavut :rolleyes !

How many people exclusively travel east/west or north/south? The DRL can take them across downtown and then up to the suburbs without switching trains...it's marvelous.

FYI- Queen would technically do the same as the west end veers up Brown's Line/427 and the east up Kingston (alternatively up VP).

Oh and I take your silence about my ingenious solution to the Cosburn debackle to mean you approve of my Gamble, get it ?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Again as with Scarborough why have to travel further north if your destination's south? You think my subway plans are circuitous yet you want a line to Pearson head all the way up to Woodbine before veering south when a line from Kipling via 427/Renforth would be only 10 mins away.

A DRL would be better than any of these routes in terms of airport access.

Of the 4-5 possible gateways to Pearson, that would be by far the worst. Is it any wonder why Blue 22 was cancelled!

Then why was it even proposed? The people in Weston that opposed it - which alignment to the airport do they prefer? Which alignment lines up with the DRL?

FYI- Queen would technically do the same as the west end veers up Brown's Line/427

After jogging down to Lakeshore. Hypocrite.

Oh and I take your silence about my ingenious solution to the Cosburn debackle to mean you approve of my Gamble, get it

No, it's just that sometimes your ideas are so bad and so poorly written that they are difficult to respond to. Now, your "solution" to the Cosburn problem was not nearly your worst effort, but it was still pretty bad...one stop at Cosburn is all that's needed.

 

[socialwoe]

A DRL would be better than any of these routes in terms of airport access.

That's debatable and only benefits the airport. Carlingview, Dixon, Renforth and ACC would get the cold shoulder.

Then why was it even proposed? The people in Weston that opposed it - which alignment to the airport do they prefer? Which alignment lines up with the DRL?

At $22 one way per ticket only Rosedale-Bridle Path folk could afford it and of course they don't ride transit! Now a DRL to Eglinton then utilizing the km apart spacing through Richview would be efficient. Weston going from opposition to full-flegded support and acceptance is the only way a DRL through there would work.

After jogging down to Lakeshore. Hypocrite.

Yeah I'm the hypocrite for not wasting a subway line on IKEA when Humber College, massive condo community, Mimico and Lakeshore Villages housing tens of 000s more than industrial-hwy sprawl is far more deserving and 100x faster than any commuter could possibly expect a bus to do in constrast. The fact you think people won't ride the subway over a long, smelly bus ride just because it 'detours' from the Queen alignment for a few mins just goes to show how ignorant you are.

Now, your "solution" to the Cosburn problem was not nearly your worst effort, but it was still pretty bad...one stop at Cosburn is all that's needed.

Thank god you're not the TTC's treasurer then or they'd be alot more people protesting the neglect of whole communities when the line runs right under them but they can't access it. If Allanford's good enough for both Birchmount and Kennedy, then Gamble's more than adequate for Cosburn-O'connor giving residents their "Dupont, St. Clair" not "Davenport" alone!

 

[scarberiankhatru]

That's debatable and only benefits the airport. Carlingview, Dixon, Renforth and ACC would get the cold shoulder.

It benefits a heck of a lot more than the airport...and maybe scattered industrial parks should get the cold shoulder.

Weston going from opposition to full-flegded support and acceptance is the only way a DRL through there would work.

Weston wants a DRL...

Yeah I'm the hypocrite for not wasting a subway line on IKEA

I said you're a hypocrite based on your criteria of what consitututes a jog and what doesn't, not because you want a subway line down Mimico way...your lines jog around to hit supposed "000s of trippers and major nodes and hospitals and parks," but if one were to propose a line anywhere else that did the same, you claim it's unnecessitious.

If Allanford's good enough for both Birchmount and Kennedy, then Gamble's more than adequate for Cosburn-O'connor

Don't forget Mortimer! Cosburn would replace both O'Connor and Mortimer. Why are you so concerned about a few hundred people potentially walking a few extra blocks to get to a line that you don't even think should be built?

 

[cacruden]

Weston was against Blue-22 (which is not dead) because it would "cut Weston in half", and create two communities instead of one -- for service that was not as useful for that community (loss - little gain).

A DRL subway line (if implemented acceptably) would differ in that it would be of immense use to Weston, but they would still like it implemented in a way that does not destroy the community.

Although I am a supporter of Blue-22, there are valid concerns that should be dealt with for Weston. A more congested train route cutting through Weston would likely break Weston in two (similar to what the Gardiner does to Toronto). It is likely it would have a negative affect on local real-estate prices.

Morally, the governments should address Westons concerns -- either through tunnelling under Weston (costly), or by offsetting (or expropriating at current Market values [which is never really done properly]) the loss of property value etc. (also costly), or finding an alternative route (also very costly).

 

[unimaginative2]

At $22, blue-22 can be afforded by the thousands of people who take taxis, ride the Airport Express bus, or park their own cars at the airport. Yes, it wouldn't really be for me or most of this board, but I don't think people like us make up the bulk of traffic at Pearson.