[socialwoe]

Actually, one can count the number of cities with express subway service on one hand. The vast majority use regional rail for longer trips.

Except our regional rail services are substandard. Is it too much to ask, express subways be considered in the slightest?

In a fantasy world I'd build both a Queen line and an Eglinton line, and my Queen line would have as many stops as the B/D line.

More stops though since this runs directly through the core.

But why would the TTC spend $100 M to add a stop that serves 300 acres of parkland or 300 bungalows in a place not designated for growth in the OP when it could take that money and offer them and thousands of other people spectacular bus service instead?

Yet prone to the failures of surface transit. The investment pays off in the long run much as you believe SRT conversion is better than SRT upgrade. I take it you wouldn't approve of a Willowdale infill to the Sheppard Line either?

It's precisely the tiny peripheral places that don't deserve better than buses, let alone subways.

You think Nielson/McLevin, Albion/Finch, Morningside/Lawrence or Islington/Lakeshore don't deserve better than buses :eek ? I won't begin to tell you how long it took me to get to the subway from Albion (via 36, 45, 73) but you can imagine I wasn't pleased. The nodes I've described are all worthy and in demand now.

they can actually be very fast in suburban areas and transferring between buses is far quicker than transferring between anything else.

I pity the fool :\ ! What suburbs do you frequent?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Except our regional rail services are substandard. Is it too much to ask, express subways be considered in the slightest?

Yes, it is far too much to ask when a fraction of the cost of one express line could probably pay for all-day, both way, <20 minute frequency service on at least 8 GO lines. Pretty much every other city in the world can offer some sort of proper regional rail and fare scheme...only transwanks such as yourself think that a series of express subway lines can be gotten easier.

More stops though since this runs directly through the core.

No, it wouldn't have more stops. The Queen streetcar could continue running.

Yet prone to the failures of surface transit.

You're quite uninformed if you think all surface transit must be prone to failure...buses in some suburban areas are very fast and very reliable. Even central Paris still runs buses.

I take it you wouldn't approve of a Willowdale infill to the Sheppard Line either?

If the area around Willowdale is redeveloped, a station might be warranted, but it'd probably take a station to trigger redevelopment, so it's not like the circumstances will happen naturally.

You think Nielson/McLevin, Albion/Finch, Morningside/Lawrence or Islington/Lakeshore don't deserve better than buses

Malvern does not deserve more than buses as there's just not nearly enough ridership for any form of upgraded transit. Albion & Finch would be on an extended Sheppard line. There's a slim chance Morningside & Lawrence may even see an Eglinton line extension one day. There's nothing at Islington & Lakeshore.

What suburbs do you frequent?

The ones where buses regularly travel a concession in as little as 5 minutes and where transferring between buses is effortless. I love hearing people's "horror stories" about how it took them forever/multiple hours to get somewhere by bus in the suburbs...more often than not, these stories are freak exceptions or wild exaggerations. A lot of suburban transit problems can be quickly and cheaper solved by express/rocket bus routes and GO improvements...once these easy solutions are implemented and the dust clears, we'll see where the subways really need to go - and Malvern won't be one of the places.

 

[Brighter Hell]

Here's a map I made not too long ago. The full size map can be found here. 3 new subway lines - looking at it again I'd probably add a couple stations to the Queen line and take one or two from the DRL. GO would be converted to all-day electrified regional rail. I'm thinking some of the major streets like Jane could use LRT but I haven't included them. I haven't put a lot of thought into new regional rail stations so any suggestions would be welcome.

 

[socialwoe]

Yes, it is far too much to ask when a fraction of the cost of one express line could probably pay for all-day, both way, <20 minute frequency service on at least 8 GO lines.

I hope these outlandish projections make way for additional GO lines! What I'm suggesting is Toronto self-sufficiency, not the 905 areas, CN/CP and Ottawa pulling rank.

Pretty much every other city in the world can offer some sort of proper regional rail and fare scheme

Except the fifth largest city in North America, what a quagmire we live in :rolleyes !

only transwanks such as yourself think that a series of express subway lines can be gotten easier.

I been called transwank so many times by you people I'm beginning to precieve it as a reverse psychological "thumbs up" 8o !

a. It's not a series, one continuous line.
b. 43km+18.5km (61.5 total) x 1.65 million= modest budgeting
c. added bonus of attaining adjacent local service making full-
fledged crosstown subways a reality.
d. reducing travel times on multiple levels.
e. hits every community/node/tripper in the southern half of
the city and significantly slahes outer-urban commutes.
f. encompasses the DRL through waterfront, Don
Mills/Eglinton, York City Centre and to Pearson plus
connects with several subway and commuter rail
interchanges.

No, it wouldn't have more stops.

Ha :lol !
At a glance, Humber to VP:
Humber- instead of practically retarded subways along the IKEAway, this would be the jump off point for express routes to Sherway and beyond. Obviously condos, redev.
Swansea- subway would run through same path as the 501 is today creating a Wilson type situation at Windermere. Numerous new condos
Parkside- escalator to the Colborne Lodge, walking escalator to Sunnyside without the danger of crossing two highways.
Ronchesvalles- a TTC garage, St. Joseph's, shortens 504 King travel time.
Jameson-extended 47 to Lakeshore
Dufferin South-transfer to express waterfront, redevelopment.
Dovercourt-the Drake, art-deco district, Abell condos.
Shaw-Trinity Bellwoods, route ender for 63, CAMH, new townhouses around Adelaide and King West condos.
Niagara- West Queen West bohemian shopping district.
Bathurst S-Toronto Western
Spadina S- Kensington, Chinatown, Queen West, Fashion District, offices
John-Entertainment District, CHUM-City
Uinversity-Osgoode, Opera House
Yonge-Eaton Ctr. Elgin, City Hall, Sheraton, Bay, CBD
Church- Pawn district, St Lawrence.
Jarvis- Moss Park
Parliament
River- Regent Park, start point for rerouted 506, DM BRT.
Broadview S- transfer to GO and 'DRL', Queen-Broadview Village, Degrassi, Chinatown East, Riverdale proper.
Carlaw- Pape bus, Gerrard Sq, redevelopements
Jones
Greenwood S
Coxwell S- Kingston LRT, NEW 522 streetcar to Eglinton Sq, telewagering, new condos, Ashbridge's Bay Beach and Yacht Park.
Woodbine S- Woodbine Mews townhouses, redevlopements
Kew Gardens-Beaches Jazz Festival, regional library, recreational area, Queen East novlety stores, 64 terminal
Beech-Fox Beahces, Balmy Beach park, Broadwalk.
Neville Park-R.C. Harris
Fallingbrook
Kingston- Bingham Loop, commercial activity, Upper Beaches.
Gerrard- walking transfer to Danforth GO, new PATH zone.
Victoria Park- the gap between BD stn and Danforth eliminated, Shoppers World, rerouting of some routes.

So I took out High Park, Bay and Chester and reused VP, however I added Shaw, John, Church, River, Beech and Fallingbrook (w-e alignment). Ratio of 2:1, not bad considering . See not only does the additional stops improve accessibility but it transforms the surface networks and overall affluence of the surrounding neighbourhoods as well.

 

[socialwoe]

You're quite uninformed if you think all surface transit must be prone to failure

Okay since the 512 and SRT have been prone to failure, not to mention the unreliablity of the bus schedules of virually every route I've rode on, forgive me if I caution the surface network with a grain a salt.

buses in some suburban areas are very fast and very reliable. Even central Paris still runs buses.

Sacre bleu :eek ! We, we Scarberian n'a aucune idée baisante qu'il parle de. Le transit de banlieue un désordre total la construction de métro seulement de masse rectifiera. Et le temps pour frapper est maintenant! Les bus exprès peut-être et même ils sont trop lents et encombré où que dans l'opération, ususally seulement pendant les heures de pointe quand tout le jour le transit un désordre dans Scarborough, York Nord et Etobicoke. Les trajets locaux ne le coupent pas juste! Decipher what you will from that passage, if you can!

If the area around Willowdale is redeveloped, a station might be warranted, but it'd probably take a station to trigger redevelopment, so it's not like the circumstances will happen naturally.

Aw, the "Build it and they will come" Hypothesis. If only you applied this thinking to east Scarborough and southwest Etoboicoke, we wouldn't cointinually have these discrepancies!

Malvern does not deserve more than buses as there's just not nearly enough ridership for any form of upgraded transit.

Yet according to the RTES report the area along Sheppard from McCowan to Morningside has greater than 250 jobs per km² and accrording to you Malvern's wards houses upwards of 75, 000 people and with the poor accessibilty to major arterials, transit stands as the number link residents/workers have to the city core. Heck STC's main passenger volumes originate east of Markham, not west of it.

Albion & Finch would be on an extended Sheppard line.

Assuming we get it even to Downsview, there's the issue of the two neo-Bessarions, Senlac and Faywood, that need hashing out first.

There's a slim chance Morningside & Lawrence may even see an Eglinton line extension one day.

Given the density directly and indirectly surrounding West Hill plus the overcrowding of 116, 86 and 54 it'd be foolish to overlook it especially considering even to that point some people would still be way off from their end commutes.

There's nothing at Islington & Lakeshore.

The 111 basically serves two mass crowds, the Queensway and the Lakeshore. Besides it's the heart of the Lakeshore community where mass redevelopment is expected to occur and has Humber College so close by.

The ones where buses regularly travel a concession in as little as 5 minutes and where transferring between buses is effortless.

That's the slim minority and nothing's worse than rushing to catch a bus, have it pull off and having to wait for another 10-20 mins.

I love hearing people's "horror stories" about how it took them forever/multiple hours to get somewhere by bus in the suburbs...more often than not, these stories are freak exceptions or wild exaggerations.

I wasn't lying, it took a whole three freakin' hours! Can you imagine what would've happened had I boarded from the Humberline/wood loop? I started around four and didn't arrive at Finch 'til after 7. Even the longest subway from the Zoo twice to MCC wouldn't take half that long! Once I took the bus from Keele/Finch to Keele Stn and it too took 3 hours, between rush hour gridlock, stopping every 2 mins for let-offs (oh yeah it was overcrowded as heck) and incessant traffic lights. Then when it finally starts to clear up the bus takes the insipid routing of Old Weston and screws with the timing even worse >: .

once these easy solutions are implemented and the dust clears, we'll see where the subways really need to go - and Malvern won't be one of the places.

But Markham Road will, which in the most basic sense is the western boundary of Malvern anyway. Hence Malvern gets it's subway after all and there ain't anything you can do about it :evil !

3 new subway lines - looking at it again I'd probably add a couple stations to the Queen line and take one or two from the DRL.

Yes you probably should but at least you had the common sense to give Fallingbrook a subway, thank you man! This is what I meant about just completing the job and not letting future generations have to pick up the slack, costs only go up you know. The lower half of your DRL works but Mortimer and Rogers Rd are missing and that Eglinton line's way too short.

I haven't put a lot of thought into new regional rail stations so any suggestions would be welcome.

Anywhere GO and TTC subways intercept would be fine :smokin !

 

[unimaginative2]

What online translation site did you get your French from? Most of the sentences still make absolutely no sense, but it's still marginally better than some sites (i.e. Babelfish) that I have seen. I just don't get how those sites can't figure out the most basic grammar or whether a sentence makes sense. They should at least be able to determine whether the translation includes verbs, subjects, and objects in reasonable alignment. I digress...

 

[socialwoe]

What online translation site did you get your French from?

Darn, just when I wanted to appear bilingual my cover's blown!
It was translation2.paralink.com/

Scarberian, where art thou !?!

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"Darn, just when I wanted to appear bilingual my cover's blown!"

Based on how you write in English, I'm not always sure you're even unilingual.

 

[socialwoe]

^That's it? No other insults :eek ? My God it appears Khatru's turned a new leaf, I thought for sure my point-by-point breakdown of each Queen station's value would irk him some but I guess not !

 

[Ed007Toronto]

I would extend the Eglinton line to Kennedy. That stretch from Victoria Park to Kennedy could handle massive infill. Also, I'd skip the Mount Pleasant stop but would add one at Bayview as well as one at Laird (Leaside on the map?)

 

[scarberiankhatru]

I'd keep Mount Pleasant and Bayview, but add Laird and remove Leslie. If the Danforth line goes up through Brimley & Lawrence, I'd take the Eglinton not just to Kennedy, but to Markham/Kingston. And Allanford/Agincourt Mall needs a stop on the Sheppard line.

edit - and the Don Mills line should go to Finch.

 

[Darkstar416]

Brighter Hell...great map! That's exactly what I'd hope our system will look like in -- dare I say -- 40 years.

A few very minor points:

1. Arthurs Commons should just be named York U as York will only have one main station and why confuses the masses?

2. Why no westward expansion of the B-D? I would have thought you'd end it at East Mall or Sherway or even Dixie GO.

3. I'd probably add a Willowdale stop to the Sheppard line as that area is densifying quickly (and the TTC said it could always be a possibility later).

 

[Darkstar416]

BTW Brighter Hell, if such a system existed today, it would take me about 25 minutes to get to work as opposed to 70.

 

[doady]

Yeah , Brighter Hell your map looks really good but I think it is missing a few things. There needs to be more stations (especially for the subways), more commuter rail lines, more streetcars.

Also, I think most people don't realize how realize how busy Dundas in Mississauga is as a transit corridor. People always suggest a subway extension for Yonge but they always forget about Dundas, even though their ridership is very similar. In fact, before VIVA, Dundas actually had the higher ridership.

I think the main omissions of your map are actually in the 416 though, but you along with others have touched on this issue already.

Also, you should use PNG format for maps. JPEG is not the best format.

 

[Brighter Hell]

Thanks for the suggestions. I named the York U subway station Arthurs Commons because if a regional rail system and the TTC integrate as they should, I figured there shouldn't be two stations with the same name.

Extending the Don Mills line to Finch would add an unnecesary transfer for people using the Sheppard line. I believe that's one reason none of the streetcar lines go north of Bloor - to minimize transfers. You could be right though, I really have no idea what ridership is like around there.

I'll make some changes later.