[scarberiankhatru]

Sorry, Bill Gates is off donating computers to schools in countries that don't have electricity.

 

[socialwoe]

You've obviously never been there, but try looking at Google Maps. It's lined with a number of apartment buildings and townhouses.

So is Malvern and the path of the Eglinton East line. Trite you'd give an area within range of several subways one of it's own while east Scarborough vastly becomes the black sheep of the GTA.

You don't think that the TTC could introduce smart cards in an imaginary world with tens of billions to build subways?

Wow that says alot for cash fares and tickets and tokens. Not everyone can afford metropasses, especially when they actually lose $ on it when they don't fully utilize its worth.

Traffic south of Lawrence is easy: Build a Relief Line along Don Mills.

Deterring thousands from where they want to be: Yonge St.

What you don't seem to understand is that those stations are all on the way to major destinations. Malvern would be about as busy as one of those, but it's the final destination for two subway lines in your plan.

What would you have me do then? I tried compromising my ideas to bring the subway just to the Sheppard-Markham intersection yet even that seems to be too much for some here to handle. Does the SRT report, original intensions for the line, almost 100,000 residents, nodes along Markham Rd and regional proximity account for nothing? If looked at in terms of it being one continuous line: it starts at Albion and finishes at Square One, longest subway line in history perhaps but no one rides it just for the sake of riding it, they get from their point A to point B then get off. Who in the grand scheme of things would care if the line looped to serve several residential communities and a Zoo at the fringe?

Do you really think people are going to take the subway to go camping?

I can't respond to this, I tried!

You want to replace GO lines with subways? Well,

Doesn't it not benefit out-of-towners to have the inner 416 stops obceleted? Doing so would eliminate the need for subways to the suburbs cause then you really couldn't compare the two transit modes for speed. Remember even when people get off at a 416 stop they're still at the TTC's mercy to get home, meaning waits up to 10-20 mins at an outdoor GO stop in the dead heat of winter. That sounds enjoyable ! Using the subway instead abolishes those wait times, hence it may in fact be much quicker and safer too.

A three store plaza and 12 townhouses do not constitute "malls and condos."

One day you'll get it Scarb, one day.

One day you'll visit these areas, instead of just looking at them on maps, and you'll learn so much.

I've ridden just about every bus route there is, even the elusive non-subway connecting 99. I KNOW what I'm saying when I say veering lines up kms to serve a few arbitrary nodes is an unnecessary evil that must be squashed. You said pretty much the same when I wanted Chinatwon linked to Queen, seeing its potential but I got over it.

you only mentioned it after I prodded you a dozen times about how useless it was.

Well it was my intention all along to connect them as not to make the east end a white elephant. If you want to hear something really bizarre, I even thought once to run Queen up to STC, linking both city centres directly. It would be done by creating a new ROW for BD east of Main so that it remains along Danforth then up Kingston Rd.

That's a terrible idea. But, of course, it serves "thousands"...routes that serve "tens of thousands" are dismissed by you as unnecessitious.

It just guarantees reliabilty along this dense corridor, effectively the eastern gateway to downtown. Streetcars if ran the entire length would still be go-slow in constrast.

Huh? Route reliability goes down the toilet when route length increases.

In ways true and false. The south routes (run from BD southwards only) are very unreliable in service in contrast to northern, longer routes which sees twice as many vehicles pull into the stations, usually bumper to bumper. I know this is reflective of volume but if the whole length were integrated perhaps service along the whole corridor would be better. On the other hand some routes like 47, 29 would be better is their routes were split as sometimes you can wait forever for a southbound while 3 northbounds shuttle in one after the other and vice-versa.

Talk about overselling a route! The big condo cluster would be within walking distance of a Queen alignment. Coincidentally, Sherway would be, too. Everything else (there's not much else) would be like 5 minutes away on a bus/streetcar. A Queen alignment could go into Mississauga, while the Bloor line could go to the airport, letting the Weston line go to Rexdale...it has a certain natural logic, but it's just something to think about.

What about Eglinton? Seems like an excuse not to build it. Queensway is even less dense than Dundas and if it's only purpose is to link MCC with Sherway, nothing in the way of intermediate nodes, wouldn't it just be cheaper to build LRT or even that Bahn-S wye of the Milton line someone suggested already? Bloor to Pearson would involve following the Hwy 427/Renforth alignment, a line you laughed at me over.

What nodes?!? Port Credit is the only one.

Condo community (it stretches down past Park Lawn so expecting all these people to walk upto the Queensway is sheer madness!), Mimico Village (very commercial, low-rise apts, proximity to GO), 7th (novelty shops), Humber College (000s of students, lakefront recreation) and Long Branch (high-rise apts, room for development, GO/TTC/MT). As for PC 10 mins away is a hell of alot faster than the non-GO options they have now.

OK, that's just stupid...not to mention ridiculously long.

But it follows Doady's 18 km 'perfection' to a tee with the added bonus of not letting Hurontario be a stand-alone line .

That's been answered.

Not quite. The true answer would be you're bias towards Finch cause it's near where you live. Plain and simple. You can't relate to South Etobicoke's transit problems cause they're not your's, that or you're in complete denial to how long it takes to access the CBD from there or how periodic the buses show up or that the Queensway is a forever ways away from the Lakeshore, worse than Queen is from the DRL path!

Look at a satellite map of Cosburn and rethink that one.

Cosburn and Pape? Are you serious? It's a cluster of novelty and retail stores at best with some low-rise apartment buildings around Carlaw. Whose overselling a route now? Think this anology: I want Dupont and St Clair, you just want Davenport.

you suggested 500 metre spacing for GO lines. You haven't gotten the knack of the metric system yet, have you?

I said 1-2 kms in referrence only to the stops directly over the city. Where'd you get 500m from? You're the one who knows zippo if you think Carl Hall, Keele North= 4 stops per concession.

GO lines are their own private space...the TTC can't just start building in GO corridors. What does rail to Kginston have to do with the TTC?

Okay first it's Kingston and seceondly you said we should wait and see what GO's doing before we plan out where to build subways when in fact today's system is less than it was in the past. GO and GO alone (I never suggested putting in GO corridors, you did with your insufferable DRL plans) would service these places. If Kingston's too far east, how about Port Hope or Coulburg? Oshawa can't be it.

Yeah, sure.

Do I have to go referrencing now?

You plan would probably cost $100 billion.

Spread out over time it'd cost less than a cup of coffee a day to build !

 

[unimaginative2]

<!--EZCODE QUOTE START--><blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>You don't think that the TTC could introduce smart cards in an imaginary world with tens of billions to build

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Wow that says alot for cash fares and tickets and tokens. Not everyone can afford metropasses, especially when they actually lose $ on it when they don't fully utilize its worth.[/quote]

Please come back to me in 10 years when you've travelled a bit, read a bit, and have some idea what you're talking about. Virtually the entire world is going to smart cards, not just for monthly passes, but for single fares too.

Doesn't it not benefit out-of-towners to have the inner 416 stops obceleted? Doing so would eliminate the need for subways to the suburbs cause then you really couldn't compare the two transit modes for speed. Remember even when people get off at a 416 stop they're still at the TTC's mercy to get home, meaning waits up to 10-20 mins at an outdoor GO stop in the dead heat of winter. That sounds enjoyable ! Using the subway instead abolishes those wait times, hence it may in fact be much quicker and safer too.

Another thing you'd discover if you'd travel or read a bit is that most of the world's successful transit systems include the wonderful world of regional rail. Just because it isn't done in your experience in Toronto doesn't mean that it can't haven integrated fares. Hell, it can even be run by the same transit authority, believe it or not! I must admit I wouldn't be worried too much about the "dead heat" of a Toronto winter, but it is possible, you know, to climate control regional rail stops. Additionally, the TTC does an abysmal job of routing passengers to regional rail stations. If they were integrated, of course, the TTC would use them as focal points for bus routes just as they do with the subway.

Okay first it's Kingston

Wait, wait, wait. Let me get this straight. You are actually trying to correct someone's typo of Kingston? If you had any idea how many spelling errors, grammar errors, and hilarious made-up words there are in every line of your posts...

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Okay first it's Kingston

You're not in a good position to be lecturing on typos...trust me. Your made up words alone would fill half a page, then there's your abundant typos and truly bizarre and unprecedented use of the English language. But I enjoy cryptograms, so your posts are fun.

Deterring thousands from where they want to be: Yonge St.

The DRL goes to Yonge Street! It goes to the heart of the CBD.

The true answer would be you're bias towards Finch cause it's near where you live.

I don't live in Rexdale and I'll never even use the Sheppard West line out there. By your standards, that makes me Christ-like.

Cosburn and Pape? Are you serious?

Yes.

The south routes (run from BD southwards only) are very unreliable in service in contrast to northern, longer routes

Here's one explanation: south = downtown, north = suburbs.

Bloor to Pearson would involve following the Hwy 427/Renforth alignment, a line you laughed at me over.

It certainly wouldn't go through Centennial Park...if the Bloor line was ever to have gone to the airport, it would have turned at Islington.

Where'd you get 500m from?

"moderate spacing at 0.5 kms" is what you said. Rapid transit lines that stop every 500 metres wouldn't be exceptionally "rapid" now, would they?

seceondly you said we should wait and see what GO's doing before we plan out where to build subways when in fact today's system is less than it was in the past. GO and GO alone (I never suggested putting in GO corridors, you did with your insufferable DRL plans) would service these places. If Kingston's too far east, how about Port Hope or Coulburg? Oshawa can't be it.

If that's all you can come up with re: GO, your opinions on the subject are now worthless to me. Two words: Rouge Hill.

 

[adma]

Quote:
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Okay first it's Kingston
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Wait, wait, wait. Let me get this straight. You are actually trying to correct someone's typo of Kingston? If you had any idea how many spelling errors, grammar errors, and hilarious made-up words there are in every line of your posts...

Especially since said typo was, from what I could tell, just a slip of the typing fingers.

As opposed to spelling Cobourg "Coulburg", of course...

 

[scarberiankhatru]

Re: the Kingston typo...IMO, the funnier thing is why he was even talking about Kingston in the first place. Socialwoe thinks that "GO improvements," a phrase seen and understood in virtually every transportation thread on this forum, means nothing more than linear extensions to places like Kingston or Niagara. In other words, for example, the only thing wrong with the Stouffville line as it exists today is that it doesn't go to le ville de la Belle Durham qui s'appelle Uxbridge.

 

[spmarshall]

At least Socialwoe's concept of "GO improvements" are better than GO Transit's though, who see improvements consisting of:

- Bigger parking lots
- Longer trains to stuff more people, without better service

And they call them service improvements.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

You views on GO are well documented

I'm a little more optimistic that GO could evolve into a useful commuter rail system in a decade or two.

 

[unimaginative2]

Oh it could evolve. But I don't think it will. GO already has its plan for the next two decades, and most of it is what spmarshall has been saying.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

When I say "useful" I don't mean anything close to the kind of real commuter lines other cities have, I mean "ability to use" as in in 20 years I'm hoping certain GO lines will be offering more than 4 trains per day, etc.

 

[doady]

Says who? Why must a subway line slavishly follow a road? When you're tunnelling, you can go pretty much anywhere. It's worth exploring every option...they can always be rejected later, but ignoring the possibilities is an act of criminal negligence.

I never said it was a rule, don't try make it sound like I did. I did put the DRL on my map after all. I'm just saying since Dixon doesn't offer any distinct advantage over Eglinton you might as well keep on Eglinton.

I said going up Scarlett was one option, not that it should be done. The line could go west along Eglinton until Weston, then north west to Dixon, then west to the airport. Weston may be "denser," but since it's only a few hundred metres away from Scarlett, that doesn't mean anything.

Do you really think the density of Weston can benefit the Scarlett line even though it is across the river?

There's hardly anything along Eglinton that can be Avenueized...the designation doesn't carry much weight here. There's absolutely no reason Dixon can't receive the same designation. Redevelopment is just a bonus, anyway - most Eglinton subway patrons will arrive by bus, and by running along Dixon, you bring the subway closer to them. It also doesn't preclude the precious busway from being run straight across Eglinton inside the 416.

Eglinton simply has more space not only for redevelopment and also for a cheaper subway line. Eglinton-Renforth is a perfect place to extend the Airport People Mover and connect both transit from both the 905 and 416 at the same time, and not mention make connections to MT much easier. Remember the only reason the TTC considered building the subway to Airport/Carlingview in the first place was to connect to the People Mover. There are also a lot more people working near Eglinton/Renforth than at Airport/Carlingview.

In terms of ridership and current level of bus service, those sections of Eglinton and Dixon are around the same, so in terms of cost, redevelopment potential, and regional connections, Eglinton is easily the better route for a subway line.

The last thing Toronto needs is to have its transit lines determined by what the suburbs deem important.

The Mississauga Transitway was originally planned to meet up with the Eglinton subway, not the other way atound.

Anyways, I prefer to think of the GTA as whole instead of the City of Toronto as island within itself, but that's just me.

 

[socialwoe]

Virtually the entire world is going to smart cards, not just for monthly passes, but for single fares too.

Hyperbole much? Less than one-third of the world has a system remotely as advanced as our's. Even if tickets and tokens were made obcelete, there'll always be a group of people who just like paying cash up front (VIVA take note) no hassle.

include the wonderful world of regional rail. Just because it isn't done in your experience in Toronto doesn't mean that it can't haven integrated fares. Hell, it can even be run by the same transit authority, believe it or not!

How 'bout letting transfer holders get a free ride? It's not too much to ask. The expectation of paying double fares within the 416 is a valid reason why more people don't ride it.

I must admit I wouldn't be worried too much about the "dead heat" of a Toronto winter, but it is possible, you know, to climate control regional rail stops.

Please, the shelters they have at GO stops couldn't keep an unsheared sheep warm! Wind chill factors, snow seeping in, it's very disconcerting. And FYI only enclosed structures can be climate controlled :rolleyes .

Additionally, the TTC does an abysmal job of routing passengers to regional rail stations. If they were integrated, of course, the TTC would use them as focal points for bus routes just as they do with the subway.

They do for several stops mainly Rouge Hill and Long Branch. Some like Old Cummer and York U however will always be walk-ins territory.

If you had any idea how many spelling errors, grammar errors, and hilarious made-up words there are in every line of your posts...

Oh you peeps bring it up all the time. I just felt like turning the tables for once !

The DRL goes to Yonge Street! It goes to the heart of the CBD.

You got me there!

I don't live in Rexdale and I'll never even use the Sheppard West line out there. By your standards, that makes me Christ-like.

Well I got one better. I don't live in the Beaches nor Rouge Hill nor Malvern nor Long Branch nor Rexdale nor VCC nor Richmond Hill and I'll never even use half these lines. So what trumps divinity?...supremacy :evil !

Yes.

Damn, you must really like inconveniencing people? I told you umpteen times Cosburn will gets it's subway stop but a six-car train plus length for mezzanines and stairwells make it possible to to create a Cosburn-O'connor stop in entirity! It's Mortimer, which to stop at would only take less than 30 secs, that needs to be included in discussions for a DRL along Pape as it'd have several uses, one being alleviating the bottleneck of traffic through this intersection. Putting everything at a single stop means more people delayed 5-10 mins walking it down or up to Mortimer and O'connor.

Here's one explanation: south = downtown, north = suburbs.

If by that you mean downtown where all the jobs, amenities, entertainment lies whereas suburbs are mainly residences such that when dumping one set off at a station it interupts the continuous flow of passengers along a corridor, then by all means things are fine as is. See the value of more east-west lines now? At least with them in place a suburbanite would be closer to home say from a Sheppard stop then riding all the way up from BD, allowing urbanites through service.

It certainly wouldn't go through Centennial Park...if the Bloor line was ever to have gone to the airport, it would have turned at Islington.

Yeah that's just me thinking outside the box again seeing the full potential of the Renforth corridor. If BD turned up Cordova/Burnhamthrope it probably would've gone to MCC not the airport as even that corridor has set aside ROW where the subway would've gone. Not that bad an idea since it'd hit Etobicoke Civic Centre and Rockwood Mall not to mention a dense, thriving residential population en route.

Rapid transit lines that stop every 500 metres wouldn't be exceptionally "rapid" now, would they?

For every line expcept Queen (since the closer you are to the core the greater the proximity ratio has to be to hit every node/tripper/population cluster) has spacing greater than BD. I felt the need to place stops at every major intersection or concession road cause it was a good guideline to follow. Otherwise you'll wind with situations like what Scarbourough's facing today: several superfluous routes radiating out of a single stop, soem routes giving more emphasis than others, when additional stops alleviates the pressures on this one stop and speeds up commutes for 000s.

If that's all you can come up with re: GO, your opinions on the subject are now worthless to me. Two words: Rouge Hill.

Well thankfully other posters are in agreeance with me on this one so your opinion on mine is now worthless to me too. There's too many things wrong with GO to hash out in just one blurb, making my so-called attempt to displace them not so transwank afterall !

 

[prometheus the supremo]

based on a future density map in the other thread, isn't it wise to connect the dots?

expansion is in green and the orange line is for airport connectivity. routes are approximate and don't reflect actual placement, just a general path. just trying to express where transit expansion should happen based on nodes and their growth. some of those lines i chose because they would be relatively simple to implement, notice no eglinton because it would be too complicated. it could be added later in the future.

 

[bizorky]

A dedicated GO train out as far as Kingston could take some pressure off of VIA, allowing for quicker travel on the corridor between Toronto, Montreal and Ottawa.

 

[adma]

*And* easy access to places like Port Hope, Cobourg, Belleville et al without having to worry about night-run scheds or resorting to bus rides to exurban tin-can "terminals"...