[wyliepoon]

I might be asking too much, but really the best way for a subway proposal, fantasy or not, to be analyzed is to draw it to scale, so that the plan can be seen in context. Editing a TTC map doesn't really demonstrate the scale of the system, station spacing, etc.

Perhaps the plan should be overlaid on Google Maps/Earth?

 

[scarberiankhatru]

2090 is a forever away. By then, maybe Toronto will be as hollowed out as Detroit - if it does happen, we can't say we weren't warned...if it doesn't happen, and I live that long, I will have cried out in vain for a DRL over seven billion times. Poor Don Mills, a megarterial with "density" and it'll never get a subway. And poor Weston line, it would diagonally hit like every single bus route north/west of Dundas West and take the steam out of the busway. We're gonna need to import some of those Tokyo 'pushers' if the Yonge line isn't relieved when this plan's done. Sigh.

"This is where buses take over. I can't imagine someone getting depressed over having 25 minutes shaved off their commute just to mope about a one minute bus ride."

People in Jane & Finch and Rexdale must rely on buses? Then what the hell good are all the subways? Honestly, you're just taking every place in Toronto with "density" and playing connect the dots.

"Besides if Sheppard ran up to Finch it'd overlap with the YUS extension, what double-stations at Chesswood and Keele/Finch?"

You have two lines going to the Zoo and three lines going to Sherway and you're worried about two lines overlapping for about 1 km? Maybe the Sheppard West extension could jog up a tad to serve York U...2 for 1.

"At least Sheppard West could be run above ground."

True. Much of Eglinton and the DRL could also be above ground. The TTC seems to plan only for underground subways to inflate the cost as an excuse to not build them. Heck, Eglinton and the DRL don't really even need to be subways - they can be any kind of train as long as it holds a lot of people, is fast, and is grade separated (but if it goes underground I'd call it a subway).

"I never expected anyone to need to travel the whole line to get where they're going but yes if someone entering Toronto from Mississauga wanting North York or the Beaches would have multiple options."

I was referring to the fact that two jumpers could shut down almost the entire subway system. As for multiple options, what about GO?

"I like to say the beginnings of this plan or any plan could begin as early as 2008 but since Pitfield lost?"

Don't blame my apathy - I voted for her.

 

[dashingdan]

i think a lot of the fantasy maps we see are just unreasonable. way too many stops or where they're not needed. i think it'd be good to start off with the ttc's most recent RTES and work from there, which i remember someone somewhere did. at least it was based on some real planning document.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"If it satifies the demand and is convenient then it doesn't matter subway vs RT."

Well, the SRT is inconvenient and doesn't satisfy demand.

edit - "i think it'd be good to start off with the ttc's most recent RTES and work from there, which i remember someone somewhere did. at least it was based on some real planning document."

Half the fun of fantasy maps is that they don't need to follow TTC dogma.

The other half is criticizing them

 

[EnviroTO]

If they do that, some of the subways will never be built. The Danforth line may never be extended to STC because they built the RT instead.

If it satifies the demand and is convenient then it doesn't matter subway vs RT.

 

[EnviroTO]

Even RTES is politically motivated. Where is a DRL evaluated in RTES?

Well, the SRT is inconvenient and doesn't satisfy demand.

What is planned to replace the SRT is going to satify demand regardless what is chosen. The SRT getting replaced with a subway is one of the more rational subway projects because (a) RT of some form was implemented first, (b) it is near capacity at rush hour, and (c) a removal of a transfer for a large group of passengers.

 

[doady]

All SCC needs is a diversion of the Stouffeville line. Building a subway to SCC is waste of money. The demand isn't there and direct connection downtown would be so much more convenient and serve a lot more people.

 

[unimaginative2]

The RT is definitely at capacity when you consider that the TTC operates express buses specifically to allow people to bypass it. If there isn't demand at Scarborough Centre, where is there demand? As I've said, it's the biggest trip generator east of Yonge.

Also, Union Station is a much bigger trip generator than the City Hall.

 

[socialwoe]

"2090 is a forever away."

Yes but the way I prioritized the expansion only minor extensions would be left to be completed by then. If subway/RT could realistically get as far as Morningside/UTSC and no further, I'd be content cause at least density east of McCowan isn't ignored.

"DRL over seven billion times. Poor Don Mills, a megarterial with "density" and it'll never get a subway. And poor Weston line, it would diagonally hit like every single bus route north/west of Dundas West..."

The DRL is iffy. Weston sub already contends with GO, VIA, CN/CP, a possible Blue 22 and opposition from NIMBYs in Weston. At least the addition of four more tracks and tons of property acquisition would have to occur before DRL could even be considered. Then think of stations:Annette, St Clair, Rogers, but beyond there? It'd only make sense beyond Weston if it ran into Brampton which already has GO service.

Don Mills would still need to have shared bus service like Sheppard does today and I thought another line south of Queen would be overkill hence why I had the Queen line serving St Lawrence directly and south to Queen's Quay to integrate the harbourfront better with the rest of the city. North of Eglinton a SRT-type elevated subway perhaps but much like your qualm with Malvern, Thorncliffe Park isn't worthy.

"People in Jane & Finch and Rexdale must rely on buses? Then what the hell good are all the subways? Honestly, you're just taking every place in Toronto with "density" and playing connect the dots."

Except my plan puts a stop in the heart of "real" Rexdale (Islington/Rexdale/Bergamot) and Jane-Finch would, even without the Sheppard West part, be well within range of subways (Steeles West is practically at Jane, Finch West, Jane-Sheppard, Arleta all close by).

So true on the dots thing, maximum accesibility=maximun usage. Why take cars when everywhere you need to be is just a subway away? But heh what do I know!

"All SCC needs is a diversion of the Stouffeville line. Building a subway to SCC is waste of money."

Wrong! The new Kennedy GO Stn is a close enough link. I'm against building it a brand-new underground ROW via the hydro-corridor as proposed but rather converting the existing SRT line to accomodate subway traffic (enlarging of track and stations, fortification of elevated section, etc.)

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"Then think of stations:Annette, St Clair, Rogers, but beyond there?"

By running diagonally, it could intersect with every bus route in the NW part of the city. Buses pour in more riders than "density" around stations does.

"Don Mills would still need to have shared bus service like Sheppard does today "

So you'd spend $100 billion on subways but running a single bus along Don Mills every half hour is just too much? Or is your plan just to shift the entire TTC operating budget over to the capital budget? Do you work for Bombardier?

"North of Eglinton a SRT-type elevated subway perhaps but much like your qualm with Malvern, Thorncliffe Park isn't worthy."

This made me laugh out loud. There's more people in Oshawa than Malvern - would Oshawa be worthy? What about Milton? Barrie?

 

[adma]

"Annette" seems an awkward name (I guess with "Dupont" or "Dundas" being taken). I'm wondering if, as a bow to the community and a tribute to the station criminally destroyed here in '82, "West Toronto" or "West Toronto Junction" might be better...

 

[dashingdan]

The SRT getting replaced with a subway is one of the more rational subway projects because (a) RT of some form was implemented first, (b) it is near capacity at rush hour, and (c) a removal of a transfer for a large group of passengers.

We all know that being rational does not get a subway built. I'm from Mississauga but I support the replacement of the SRT with subway, just because I know how much transfers suck. You should be able to sleep your way from Kipling to Scarborough Centre.

 

[afransen TO]

Having many stations also slows service/average speed on a line. The only way to have the speed of widely interspersed stations with the convenience of frequent stations is to have express and local service, with express stopping at the important stations, once for every four or five local stations.


If BD had express trains, f'rinstance and had trains that had peak operating speed of 100 km/h, accelerating at .85m/s^2 and decceleration of 1.3m/s^2, with 30 s wait time at each station, the express train would take half as long to go end to end (18 minutes v 38min). I made a bit of a toy spreadsheet where you can play with the variables a bit.

Given the trains the TTC has (operating speed of 80km/h with the accel/decel list above), the difference is 21 min to 32 min. I guess it might not sound like a lot, but I think it'd be pretty significant. Of course, if you live between express stops, there's transfer times involved, but I think most people would benefit, especially since people who get dumped on the termini are already at express stops.

It's a given that building both local and express would be expensive, but it makes for a higher capacity system, one that is more extensible, not to mention faster overall. I know it's unrealistic given the already critical lack of funding, but if I were the benevolent dictator of this country, it seems like something I would have done, if not at least make possible.

 

[scarberiankhatru]

"The SRT getting replaced with a subway is one of the more rational subway projects"

Yes, but building the SRT in the first place was not rational.

 

[EnviroTO]

^ I agree. It should have been BRT or at very least used similar equipment to the rest of the streetcar network for compatibility. Making the SRT totally different from everything else in the network made no sense at all.