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scarberiankhatru
Guest
No, it should have been a subway.
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EnviroTO
Guest
What was the demand like on the route back then? Scarborough Centre barely existed. Back then parts of Scarborough Centre would have been barely more than Vaughan Centre. I can't see a subway being warranted back then.
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unimaginative2
Guest
Maybe you've really hit on something there: it might not be such a bad idea to build a subway right away to a massive development at the same time as it's being built.
Mind you, even in 1985, Scarborough Centre had a massive mall, some office buildings, and the civic centre facilities.
Mind you, even in 1985, Scarborough Centre had a massive mall, some office buildings, and the civic centre facilities.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
They knew perfectly well back then that the RT would serve an area with almost 400,000 people, the mall and civic centre were already there, etc. It was a huge mistake to build anything other than a subway extension.
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socialwoe
Guest
"By running diagonally, it could intersect with every bus route in the NW part of the city. Buses pour in more riders than "density" around stations does."
What you're suggesting sounds like you want the line to follow Geogretown GO as far as Weston then veer up Albion. Though practical in some ways there be 100s of kms of underused track built just to service three bus routes: Islington, Kipling and Martin Grove. The Tinseldown (sp?) and Albion Mall vinicity are much better served via a ROW from Hwy 27 since Humber College and Woodbine Racetrack would draw more passengers and its cheaper and easier to construct. Even Sheppard line via Finch makes more sense since Albion is highly residential whereas Finch has vacant land to spare.
"So you'd spend $100 billion on subways but running a single bus along Don Mills every half hour is just too much?"
You don't see daytime buses on Bloor do you? 25,000 ppd isn't high compared to Finch West and East, Eglinton West and East, 501 Queen. The only way I'd recommend a subway on Don Mills is if it were a flying U subway i.e. one that combined Eglinton, Sheppard and/or Queen using Don Mills/Weston SUB as the connecting route.
"Thorncliffe Park isn't worthy.This made me laugh out loud. There's more people in Oshawa than Malvern - would Oshawa be worthy? What about Milton? Barrie?"
You say that like a single stop at East York Shopping Centre is within walking distance of every apartment building in that neighbourhood. They'd still need to ride a bus, you would spend $100 billion on that when you think my stops-per-line ratio is too many and advocate more people learn how to walk. The Science Ctr is close enough. Think how many more people would be inconvienced by the construction of yet another vertical line meanwhile downtown streetcars still move at crawl pace, there's no through route from Queen to Highland Creek on Kingston Rd, slow service on Eglinton, Sheppard, etc.
What you're suggesting sounds like you want the line to follow Geogretown GO as far as Weston then veer up Albion. Though practical in some ways there be 100s of kms of underused track built just to service three bus routes: Islington, Kipling and Martin Grove. The Tinseldown (sp?) and Albion Mall vinicity are much better served via a ROW from Hwy 27 since Humber College and Woodbine Racetrack would draw more passengers and its cheaper and easier to construct. Even Sheppard line via Finch makes more sense since Albion is highly residential whereas Finch has vacant land to spare.
"So you'd spend $100 billion on subways but running a single bus along Don Mills every half hour is just too much?"
You don't see daytime buses on Bloor do you? 25,000 ppd isn't high compared to Finch West and East, Eglinton West and East, 501 Queen. The only way I'd recommend a subway on Don Mills is if it were a flying U subway i.e. one that combined Eglinton, Sheppard and/or Queen using Don Mills/Weston SUB as the connecting route.
"Thorncliffe Park isn't worthy.This made me laugh out loud. There's more people in Oshawa than Malvern - would Oshawa be worthy? What about Milton? Barrie?"
You say that like a single stop at East York Shopping Centre is within walking distance of every apartment building in that neighbourhood. They'd still need to ride a bus, you would spend $100 billion on that when you think my stops-per-line ratio is too many and advocate more people learn how to walk. The Science Ctr is close enough. Think how many more people would be inconvienced by the construction of yet another vertical line meanwhile downtown streetcars still move at crawl pace, there's no through route from Queen to Highland Creek on Kingston Rd, slow service on Eglinton, Sheppard, etc.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
"Though practical in some ways there be 100s of kms of underused track built just to service three bus routes: Islington, Kipling and Martin Grove."
Look, all I'm saying is that instead of dismissing it as useless, a Weston line, taking a generally diagonal path somewhere between Dundas West station and Brampton, would intersect every bus route in the NW and provide the NW with its most direct route downtown.
"You don't see daytime buses on Bloor do you?"
If they had them, they'd be used...the too-frequent stops really slow down the line, anyway. Stations cost, what, $100+ million? If they're not going to be used, might as well leave out select mid-concession stops and run a 30 minute bus or whatever. It's absurdly cheaper, leaving more money left over for things like a Weston line AND a Sheppard West line (that part of the city is poorly served by transit yet, being the centre of the GTA, it's vital).
"25,000 ppd isn't high compared to Finch West and East, Eglinton West and East, 501 Queen."
Thanks for supporting my argument - all those people on Finch East and Eglinton East could take Don Mills downtown instead since those buses would connect with it. Finch West and Eglinton West riders could take the Weston line downtown. And people along Queen could take the DRL when coming in from the east or the west...they certainly won't enjoy the jogs you plan for your Queen line.
"You say that like a single stop at East York Shopping Centre is within walking distance of every apartment building in that neighbourhood."
Yes, it would be <10 minutes for the whole neighbourhood. Unlike transportation and planning models, real people are capable of walking beyond a 500m radius of a station.
"Think how many more people would be inconvienced by the construction of yet another vertical line meanwhile downtown streetcars still move at crawl pace, there's no through route from Queen to Highland Creek on Kingston Rd, slow service on Eglinton, Sheppard, etc."
Inconvenienced? The Yonge line is crammed full of people and your extensions would dump thousands more riders on every hour. Your extensions are designed to replace cars on arterial roads and highways and don't really address where people live or where they want to go by transit.
edit - more radial subway lines in 'dense' corridors = more world class
Look, all I'm saying is that instead of dismissing it as useless, a Weston line, taking a generally diagonal path somewhere between Dundas West station and Brampton, would intersect every bus route in the NW and provide the NW with its most direct route downtown.
"You don't see daytime buses on Bloor do you?"
If they had them, they'd be used...the too-frequent stops really slow down the line, anyway. Stations cost, what, $100+ million? If they're not going to be used, might as well leave out select mid-concession stops and run a 30 minute bus or whatever. It's absurdly cheaper, leaving more money left over for things like a Weston line AND a Sheppard West line (that part of the city is poorly served by transit yet, being the centre of the GTA, it's vital).
"25,000 ppd isn't high compared to Finch West and East, Eglinton West and East, 501 Queen."
Thanks for supporting my argument - all those people on Finch East and Eglinton East could take Don Mills downtown instead since those buses would connect with it. Finch West and Eglinton West riders could take the Weston line downtown. And people along Queen could take the DRL when coming in from the east or the west...they certainly won't enjoy the jogs you plan for your Queen line.
"You say that like a single stop at East York Shopping Centre is within walking distance of every apartment building in that neighbourhood."
Yes, it would be <10 minutes for the whole neighbourhood. Unlike transportation and planning models, real people are capable of walking beyond a 500m radius of a station.
"Think how many more people would be inconvienced by the construction of yet another vertical line meanwhile downtown streetcars still move at crawl pace, there's no through route from Queen to Highland Creek on Kingston Rd, slow service on Eglinton, Sheppard, etc."
Inconvenienced? The Yonge line is crammed full of people and your extensions would dump thousands more riders on every hour. Your extensions are designed to replace cars on arterial roads and highways and don't really address where people live or where they want to go by transit.
edit - more radial subway lines in 'dense' corridors = more world class
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socialwoe
Guest
"Inconvenienced? The Yonge line is crammed full of people and your extensions would dump thousands more riders on every hour. Your extensions are designed to replace cars on arterial roads and highways and don't really address where people live or where they want to go by transit. edit - more radial subway lines in 'dense' corridors = more world class"
WTF :eek ! How exactly does my plan add to the Yonge Line? And how can you say I shouldn't put subways in dense corridors in one breath and dub it world class to do so in the next? If anything it takes away immensely. The myriad of bus routes that filter out of the Eglinton corridor (112a, 111, 32d, 90, 109, 63, 33, 61, 5, 32, 34, 103, 74, 56, 88, 51, 54, 100, 70, 67, 113, 43, 57, 20, 12, 21, 116, 86) require passengers to head to the 3 terminals but 'radiate' out a line and less people would be dependent on the Yonge line to get where they're going. Look at all those routes I mentioned, is it any wonder why Eglinton is long overdue for a subway?
And how can you critique Queen, practically every couple of cross streets in the core warrants a stop. Maybe you should see how transit friendly other 'world-class' cities are: London, Paris, Chicago, New York, Moscow, Madrid. They aren't afraid to link their major attractions/'crowd generators'/niche communities via subway/RT. Is everything geared towards the suburbs or what when the core needs revitalizing and VCC is priority.
"Finch West and Eglinton West riders could take the Weston line downtown. And people along Queen could take the DRL when coming in from the east or the west...they certainly won't enjoy the jogs you plan for your Queen line."
How does another DRL along Weston SUB detract from Yonge when the Spadina Line is largely underused. Your idea subtracts from Spadina NOT Yonge. So you advocate and recommend two half-empty DRL lines in a sparsely populated part of town ahead of where density lies?
The jogs on the Queen line are for the sake of not overlooking major commercial/residential areas relatively close-by but not easily reached by surface transit (ever tried getting to SLM or QQ from Yonge?). If I cut out the QQ stop the jog would only be a few seconds, but the harbourfront would still be alienated from the city. At least this is better than another wasted streetcar line down there.
DRL West would work best if it stopped at Eglinton and continued westwards as the Eglinton West Line and at Queen/Dufferin continued east as the Queen Line. As per my map this could loop at Dufferin South. There I compromised my ideas, not as inflexible as you thought eh?. This however splits Eglinton into two subway/RTs at YCC so if you're against transfer points I dunno.
"If they had them, they'd be used...the too-frequent stops really slow down the line, anyway. If they're not going to be used, might as well leave out select mid-concession stops and run a 30 minute bus or whatever."
Don't let people who frequently use Old Mill, Donlands or Summerhill hear that.
WTF :eek ! How exactly does my plan add to the Yonge Line? And how can you say I shouldn't put subways in dense corridors in one breath and dub it world class to do so in the next? If anything it takes away immensely. The myriad of bus routes that filter out of the Eglinton corridor (112a, 111, 32d, 90, 109, 63, 33, 61, 5, 32, 34, 103, 74, 56, 88, 51, 54, 100, 70, 67, 113, 43, 57, 20, 12, 21, 116, 86) require passengers to head to the 3 terminals but 'radiate' out a line and less people would be dependent on the Yonge line to get where they're going. Look at all those routes I mentioned, is it any wonder why Eglinton is long overdue for a subway?
And how can you critique Queen, practically every couple of cross streets in the core warrants a stop. Maybe you should see how transit friendly other 'world-class' cities are: London, Paris, Chicago, New York, Moscow, Madrid. They aren't afraid to link their major attractions/'crowd generators'/niche communities via subway/RT. Is everything geared towards the suburbs or what when the core needs revitalizing and VCC is priority.
"Finch West and Eglinton West riders could take the Weston line downtown. And people along Queen could take the DRL when coming in from the east or the west...they certainly won't enjoy the jogs you plan for your Queen line."
How does another DRL along Weston SUB detract from Yonge when the Spadina Line is largely underused. Your idea subtracts from Spadina NOT Yonge. So you advocate and recommend two half-empty DRL lines in a sparsely populated part of town ahead of where density lies?
The jogs on the Queen line are for the sake of not overlooking major commercial/residential areas relatively close-by but not easily reached by surface transit (ever tried getting to SLM or QQ from Yonge?). If I cut out the QQ stop the jog would only be a few seconds, but the harbourfront would still be alienated from the city. At least this is better than another wasted streetcar line down there.
DRL West would work best if it stopped at Eglinton and continued westwards as the Eglinton West Line and at Queen/Dufferin continued east as the Queen Line. As per my map this could loop at Dufferin South. There I compromised my ideas, not as inflexible as you thought eh?. This however splits Eglinton into two subway/RTs at YCC so if you're against transfer points I dunno.
"If they had them, they'd be used...the too-frequent stops really slow down the line, anyway. If they're not going to be used, might as well leave out select mid-concession stops and run a 30 minute bus or whatever."
Don't let people who frequently use Old Mill, Donlands or Summerhill hear that.
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Mark Dowling
Guest
Until the Yonge subway can be improved to every 90 seconds (10 years+ in current plans) I'd like to see the 97 Yonge bus frequency improved - this would take some people off the subway who don't like being underground but who find the existing spacing too long and also appeal to people who live between subway stops - especially between Eglinton and Sheppard (97B-C) where there is long spacing between stops.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
"And how can you say I shouldn't put subways in dense corridors in one breath and dub it world class to do so in the next?"
How can you say you're placing them in dense corridors when you ignore areas like Jane & Finch, north Bathurst, Warden, McCowan, and, especially, all of Don Mills?
"How does another DRL along Weston SUB detract from Yonge when the Spadina Line is largely underused. Your idea subtracts from Spadina NOT Yonge."
You rearranged my comments - I never said the Weston line would grab riders from the Yonge line (even though the YUS loop itself is crammed and new Spadina riders will make it worse). The Weston line grabs riders from the Bloor line, which is just as busy as the Yonge line north of Bloor and will become overloaded when extended, mainly due to MT growth.
"If I cut out the QQ stop the jog would only be a few seconds, but the harbourfront would still be alienated from the city"
The Chinatown jog will still be a massive waste, slowing trains to a crawl. Harbourfront is easily reached by the Queen's Quay streetcar - but the entire waterfront would be easy to get to if they built a DRL along Front.
How can you say you're placing them in dense corridors when you ignore areas like Jane & Finch, north Bathurst, Warden, McCowan, and, especially, all of Don Mills?
"How does another DRL along Weston SUB detract from Yonge when the Spadina Line is largely underused. Your idea subtracts from Spadina NOT Yonge."
You rearranged my comments - I never said the Weston line would grab riders from the Yonge line (even though the YUS loop itself is crammed and new Spadina riders will make it worse). The Weston line grabs riders from the Bloor line, which is just as busy as the Yonge line north of Bloor and will become overloaded when extended, mainly due to MT growth.
"If I cut out the QQ stop the jog would only be a few seconds, but the harbourfront would still be alienated from the city"
The Chinatown jog will still be a massive waste, slowing trains to a crawl. Harbourfront is easily reached by the Queen's Quay streetcar - but the entire waterfront would be easy to get to if they built a DRL along Front.
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unimaginative2
Guest
socialwoe, I think he was being sarcastic with the "world class" comment.
Adding multiple new east-west lines would clearly add to Yonge, since a large number of the new riders attracted would have to transfer to the Yonge line to get to their destinations. For example, people on the Eglinton line would have to transfer to the Yonge line to get to most points downtown. Adding three subway lines worth of capacity going east-west combined with no new capacity north-south will result in impossible crowding on lines like Yonge (and probably Spadina).
I guess I'll rank my subway extension preferences here, since so many other people have. Some of these expansions would be simultaneous.
1. RT to Subway conversion
2. Downtown Relief Line from Dundas West to Pape
3. Finish Sheppard from Don Mills to SC
4. Spadina line to York U (VCC if development is assured)
5. DRL to Don Mills/Finch
6. Yonge line to Langstaff
7. Eglinton West to Renforth/Airport
8. Eglinton from Eglinton West to Wynford/Eglinton
9. DRL from Dundas West to Rexdale
Adding multiple new east-west lines would clearly add to Yonge, since a large number of the new riders attracted would have to transfer to the Yonge line to get to their destinations. For example, people on the Eglinton line would have to transfer to the Yonge line to get to most points downtown. Adding three subway lines worth of capacity going east-west combined with no new capacity north-south will result in impossible crowding on lines like Yonge (and probably Spadina).
I guess I'll rank my subway extension preferences here, since so many other people have. Some of these expansions would be simultaneous.
1. RT to Subway conversion
2. Downtown Relief Line from Dundas West to Pape
3. Finish Sheppard from Don Mills to SC
4. Spadina line to York U (VCC if development is assured)
5. DRL to Don Mills/Finch
6. Yonge line to Langstaff
7. Eglinton West to Renforth/Airport
8. Eglinton from Eglinton West to Wynford/Eglinton
9. DRL from Dundas West to Rexdale
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socialwoe
Guest
"How can you say you're placing them in dense corridors when you ignore areas like Jane & Finch, north Bathurst, Warden, McCowan, and, especially, all of Don Mills?"
Please feel free to reexamine my map. All these places are recognized. You're the one who opposes a Sheppard East extension beyond Agincourt, so you're contradicting yourself if you suddenly place onus on north McCowan when you laugh off a Sheppard-Markham loop which encompasses a Sheppard-McCowan stop.
The official TTC plan to extend YUS into Vaughan puts stops as close as Jane/Steeles and Keele/Finch. My plan goes even further, though at the periphery still well serves the greater Downsview neighbourhood. I think it's redundant to run two lines in a already well served area when a natural path to Rexdale/Humber College exists in the Sheppard corridor.
Pape/Don Mills DRL is served directly at Queen, Bloor, Eglinton, Sheppard. I already thought Hwy 27, YUS and BD East (Vic Pk onwards) were enough north-south connectors, at least equal to the number of east-west lines. The great thing I'm taking into consideraion when I oppose DRL is that this line wouldn't be built in conjunture to the east-west lines, it'd be at their expense. I'm sure almost everyone in the suburbs would submit to taking GO and vote to put lines in the downtown and to the airport ahead of every mitigating wallor-hole (I'm looking squarely at you Vaughan) getting it's own stop.
The existing 416 GO stations should be properly utilized before DRL. For instance the midtown CN line converted to shared GO service (it already runs by Summerhill and Dupont Stns and runs up to Morningside Hts), lowering of GO fares for inter-Toronto users equivilent to TTC fares to encourage more ridership (a smart card can monitor use), BRT on Don Mills and Eglinton first.
"The Chinatown jog will still be a massive waste, slowing trains to a crawl."
The jog would be less than 500m north of Queen for the stop.
Please feel free to reexamine my map. All these places are recognized. You're the one who opposes a Sheppard East extension beyond Agincourt, so you're contradicting yourself if you suddenly place onus on north McCowan when you laugh off a Sheppard-Markham loop which encompasses a Sheppard-McCowan stop.
The official TTC plan to extend YUS into Vaughan puts stops as close as Jane/Steeles and Keele/Finch. My plan goes even further, though at the periphery still well serves the greater Downsview neighbourhood. I think it's redundant to run two lines in a already well served area when a natural path to Rexdale/Humber College exists in the Sheppard corridor.
Pape/Don Mills DRL is served directly at Queen, Bloor, Eglinton, Sheppard. I already thought Hwy 27, YUS and BD East (Vic Pk onwards) were enough north-south connectors, at least equal to the number of east-west lines. The great thing I'm taking into consideraion when I oppose DRL is that this line wouldn't be built in conjunture to the east-west lines, it'd be at their expense. I'm sure almost everyone in the suburbs would submit to taking GO and vote to put lines in the downtown and to the airport ahead of every mitigating wallor-hole (I'm looking squarely at you Vaughan) getting it's own stop.
The existing 416 GO stations should be properly utilized before DRL. For instance the midtown CN line converted to shared GO service (it already runs by Summerhill and Dupont Stns and runs up to Morningside Hts), lowering of GO fares for inter-Toronto users equivilent to TTC fares to encourage more ridership (a smart card can monitor use), BRT on Don Mills and Eglinton first.
"The Chinatown jog will still be a massive waste, slowing trains to a crawl."
The jog would be less than 500m north of Queen for the stop.
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scarberiankhatru
Guest
"You're the one who opposes a Sheppard East extension beyond Agincourt, so you're contradicting yourself if you suddenly place onus on north McCowan when you laugh off a Sheppard-Markham loop which encompasses a Sheppard-McCowan stop."
The Sheppard line should run to STC because McCowan will receive its own line
I've recently become enamoured with this alignment: extend the Danforth line from Kennedy along Eglinton to Brimley (the existing platform strongly supports this), then along Danforth to McCowan, then up McCowan to Progress, verging ever so slightly westward to connect with the bus terminal and mall. From there, it's straight up McCowan, into Markham, to Markville/Hwy7.
Benefits: Feeding buses will draw from an area with over half a million people, Lawrence East and other bus patrons will get to the subway quicker (thus reducing the need for your Lawson line), it will compete less with Stouffville GO improvements (vs an alignment closer to the GO tracks), it will service the busy McCowan corridor, which is anchored by several malls, tower clusters, surprisingly dense residential neighbourhoods, and opens up the entire Malvern area to easy bus connections to the subway. Instead of running the subway through Morningside Heights, I'd rather run the subway through an adjacent area with about 8 times as many people - peripheral areas should be served by buses, not subway trunk lines.
"The official TTC plan to extend YUS into Vaughan puts stops as close as Jane/Steeles and Keele/Finch."
If being only one concession over is good enough, again, why not run the line through the busier areas so that the sparse areas full of parkland and golf courses are on the feeding-bus periphery?
"I think it's redundant to run two lines in a already well served area when a natural path to Rexdale/Humber College exists in the Sheppard corridor."
The natural - and shorter - path exists along Finch. From Downsview, York U, Jane & Finch, Rexdale, Humber, Woodbine, and Pearson, can all be hit in one curved line. Your Sheppard West line serves all kinds of Humber valley greenspace and the Belfield industrial parks (but not the airport) and it does so with a longer line. I don't care that the Albion area is not the "real" Rexdale so long as it has a lot more people.
"The jog would be less than 500m north of Queen for the stop."
Since you plan a John station, the curves required to get up to Dundas and back down to hit Bathurst may not even be possible - that's a lot of slow, tight, screechy turns. Queen & Spadina is really busy, anyway...you're avoiding it just so you can include a mezzanine modelled after an imperial Chinese palace.
"The existing 416 GO stations should be properly utilized before DRL."
But not before two lines to Malvern and a line all the way to friggin Rouge Hill?
The Sheppard line should run to STC because McCowan will receive its own line
I've recently become enamoured with this alignment: extend the Danforth line from Kennedy along Eglinton to Brimley (the existing platform strongly supports this), then along Danforth to McCowan, then up McCowan to Progress, verging ever so slightly westward to connect with the bus terminal and mall. From there, it's straight up McCowan, into Markham, to Markville/Hwy7.
Benefits: Feeding buses will draw from an area with over half a million people, Lawrence East and other bus patrons will get to the subway quicker (thus reducing the need for your Lawson line), it will compete less with Stouffville GO improvements (vs an alignment closer to the GO tracks), it will service the busy McCowan corridor, which is anchored by several malls, tower clusters, surprisingly dense residential neighbourhoods, and opens up the entire Malvern area to easy bus connections to the subway. Instead of running the subway through Morningside Heights, I'd rather run the subway through an adjacent area with about 8 times as many people - peripheral areas should be served by buses, not subway trunk lines.
"The official TTC plan to extend YUS into Vaughan puts stops as close as Jane/Steeles and Keele/Finch."
If being only one concession over is good enough, again, why not run the line through the busier areas so that the sparse areas full of parkland and golf courses are on the feeding-bus periphery?
"I think it's redundant to run two lines in a already well served area when a natural path to Rexdale/Humber College exists in the Sheppard corridor."
The natural - and shorter - path exists along Finch. From Downsview, York U, Jane & Finch, Rexdale, Humber, Woodbine, and Pearson, can all be hit in one curved line. Your Sheppard West line serves all kinds of Humber valley greenspace and the Belfield industrial parks (but not the airport) and it does so with a longer line. I don't care that the Albion area is not the "real" Rexdale so long as it has a lot more people.
"The jog would be less than 500m north of Queen for the stop."
Since you plan a John station, the curves required to get up to Dundas and back down to hit Bathurst may not even be possible - that's a lot of slow, tight, screechy turns. Queen & Spadina is really busy, anyway...you're avoiding it just so you can include a mezzanine modelled after an imperial Chinese palace.
"The existing 416 GO stations should be properly utilized before DRL."
But not before two lines to Malvern and a line all the way to friggin Rouge Hill?
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socialwoe
Guest
"But not before two lines to Malvern and a line all the way to friggin Rouge Hill?"
The basis of those lines was to put one mass tranist line in north Scarborough (Sheppard) and the other in south Scarborugh (Eglinton) with BD acting as the link between the two and feeder into downtown. It's just a fictitious map, you overlooked a brilliant idea just throw in another cheap shot. The map's just a transit fan's ultimate what if, every corner of the city covered from Malvern to Long Branch, from Rouge Hill to Albion.
If Rouge Hill GO was fully utilized the Eglinton Line wouldn't have to go further than Morningside as I mentioned several posts ago. The GO's high fares and infrequent service make it hard for inter-Toronto use which I'm sure 000s would opt to take if situations were different.
"From there, it's straight up McCowan, into Markham, to Markville/Hwy7."
Wouldn't Markham Rd be the logical route into Markham? Thanks for proving me right again. At any route there's little to no development what-so-ever between Finch and Hwy 7 so how is this any more dense than Malvern? Maybe you're right, subways shouldn't go beyond STC if you're willing to run heavy-duty subway tracks through virtual wilderness, open fields and industrial parks (even VIVA rarely goes beyond Unionville) just to serve another friggin mall :lol !
"...the curves required to get up to Dundas and back down to hit Bathurst may not even be possible - that's a lot of slow, tight, screechy turns. Queen & Spadina is really busy, anyway...
St. Clair south approach has tight, screechy curves. What's your point? I thought out my plans thoroughly and meticulously for a long time now. Running the station midway between Queen and Dundas maximises use from both areas, not limiting it to one. In reality SSS would be no further from Queen than any BD stop is at average about 1 to 1.5 blocks north of either Bloor or Danforth.
"you're avoiding it just so you can include a mezzanine modelled after an imperial Chinese palace."
I highly doubt a station would exist so close by such an ethnically and culturally diverse niche community and not reflect some element of the people living and working there. Brace yourself for the hippy/yuppy-style artwork at the Kensington entrance. !
The basis of those lines was to put one mass tranist line in north Scarborough (Sheppard) and the other in south Scarborugh (Eglinton) with BD acting as the link between the two and feeder into downtown. It's just a fictitious map, you overlooked a brilliant idea just throw in another cheap shot. The map's just a transit fan's ultimate what if, every corner of the city covered from Malvern to Long Branch, from Rouge Hill to Albion.
If Rouge Hill GO was fully utilized the Eglinton Line wouldn't have to go further than Morningside as I mentioned several posts ago. The GO's high fares and infrequent service make it hard for inter-Toronto use which I'm sure 000s would opt to take if situations were different.
"From there, it's straight up McCowan, into Markham, to Markville/Hwy7."
Wouldn't Markham Rd be the logical route into Markham? Thanks for proving me right again. At any route there's little to no development what-so-ever between Finch and Hwy 7 so how is this any more dense than Malvern? Maybe you're right, subways shouldn't go beyond STC if you're willing to run heavy-duty subway tracks through virtual wilderness, open fields and industrial parks (even VIVA rarely goes beyond Unionville) just to serve another friggin mall :lol !
"...the curves required to get up to Dundas and back down to hit Bathurst may not even be possible - that's a lot of slow, tight, screechy turns. Queen & Spadina is really busy, anyway...
St. Clair south approach has tight, screechy curves. What's your point? I thought out my plans thoroughly and meticulously for a long time now. Running the station midway between Queen and Dundas maximises use from both areas, not limiting it to one. In reality SSS would be no further from Queen than any BD stop is at average about 1 to 1.5 blocks north of either Bloor or Danforth.
"you're avoiding it just so you can include a mezzanine modelled after an imperial Chinese palace."
I highly doubt a station would exist so close by such an ethnically and culturally diverse niche community and not reflect some element of the people living and working there. Brace yourself for the hippy/yuppy-style artwork at the Kensington entrance.
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S
scarberiankhatru
Guest
"Wouldn't Markham Rd be the logical route into Markham?"
No. It's the symbolic/traditional route...athough that doesn't matter because the people live along McCowan.
"At any route there's little to no development what-so-ever between Finch and Hwy 7 so how is this any more dense than Malvern?"
No development on McCowan? It's Markham that runs through nothingness and big box plazas before ending up at the relatively untouchable historic downtown of Markham. Check out the area around McCowan & Steeles on google maps...the percentage of ground covered by roofs is pretty impressive and possibly greater than any other suburban neighbourhood in the GTA.
"Maybe you're right, subways shouldn't go beyond STC"
They can go beyond STC if there's something worth going to - and the Zoo is not worth two lines. The difference between going to Malvern and going up McCowan is that by going up McCowan you're bringing the subway closer to a much larger population.
"you're willing to run heavy-duty subway tracks through virtual wilderness, open fields and industrial parks (even VIVA rarely goes beyond Unionville) just to serve another friggin mall"
Follow McCowan along on google maps and you won't find significant industrial parks or wilderness, you'll find mostly residential areas. For comparison, you'd run a line through the undevelopable Rouge Park to serve the Zoo and your Sheppard West line runs through the Belfield area industrial parks without connecting with the airport. Malls are probably the #1 trip generators, and their parking lots are great for park'n'ride commuters and/or can easily be converted to towers.
"St. Clair south approach has tight, screechy curves. What's your point?"
Two S-curves in such a confined space (between John and Bathurst) may not even be possible. If they are, trains would be significantly slowed down...the whole point of a Queen line is that it should be an improvement over (faster than) the streetcar.
"you overlooked a brilliant idea"
Two lines to the Zoo is the brilliant idea? Even if Zoo attendance more than doubles, and every single visitor and employee takes the subway there, less than 8,000 daily people would be riding each of your lines to the Zoo (and that's 8,000 spread over the entire day in both directions).
"every corner of the city covered from Malvern to Long Branch, from Rouge Hill to Albion."
Yeah, you've covered the corners, but what about the middle? Thorncliffe Park, Jane & Finch, Don Mills & Finch, Bathurst & Steeles...major nodes, with tens of thousands of people, but they get no lovin'. The Don Mills corridor is left particularly wanting - even though you said "the density along Don Mills especially at York Mills, Lawrence, Eglinton is immense." Why ignore it even in the long term (80+ years)? Yes, Eglinton and Sheppard serve part of it, but they just dump riders onto Yonge, which can't handle many more. Complete Sheppard, Eglinton, Queen, Front, Weston, and Don Mills lines would create an incredibly powerful network of subways.
No. It's the symbolic/traditional route...athough that doesn't matter because the people live along McCowan.
"At any route there's little to no development what-so-ever between Finch and Hwy 7 so how is this any more dense than Malvern?"
No development on McCowan? It's Markham that runs through nothingness and big box plazas before ending up at the relatively untouchable historic downtown of Markham. Check out the area around McCowan & Steeles on google maps...the percentage of ground covered by roofs is pretty impressive and possibly greater than any other suburban neighbourhood in the GTA.
"Maybe you're right, subways shouldn't go beyond STC"
They can go beyond STC if there's something worth going to - and the Zoo is not worth two lines. The difference between going to Malvern and going up McCowan is that by going up McCowan you're bringing the subway closer to a much larger population.
"you're willing to run heavy-duty subway tracks through virtual wilderness, open fields and industrial parks (even VIVA rarely goes beyond Unionville) just to serve another friggin mall"
Follow McCowan along on google maps and you won't find significant industrial parks or wilderness, you'll find mostly residential areas. For comparison, you'd run a line through the undevelopable Rouge Park to serve the Zoo and your Sheppard West line runs through the Belfield area industrial parks without connecting with the airport. Malls are probably the #1 trip generators, and their parking lots are great for park'n'ride commuters and/or can easily be converted to towers.
"St. Clair south approach has tight, screechy curves. What's your point?"
Two S-curves in such a confined space (between John and Bathurst) may not even be possible. If they are, trains would be significantly slowed down...the whole point of a Queen line is that it should be an improvement over (faster than) the streetcar.
"you overlooked a brilliant idea"
Two lines to the Zoo is the brilliant idea? Even if Zoo attendance more than doubles, and every single visitor and employee takes the subway there, less than 8,000 daily people would be riding each of your lines to the Zoo (and that's 8,000 spread over the entire day in both directions).
"every corner of the city covered from Malvern to Long Branch, from Rouge Hill to Albion."
Yeah, you've covered the corners, but what about the middle? Thorncliffe Park, Jane & Finch, Don Mills & Finch, Bathurst & Steeles...major nodes, with tens of thousands of people, but they get no lovin'. The Don Mills corridor is left particularly wanting - even though you said "the density along Don Mills especially at York Mills, Lawrence, Eglinton is immense." Why ignore it even in the long term (80+ years)? Yes, Eglinton and Sheppard serve part of it, but they just dump riders onto Yonge, which can't handle many more. Complete Sheppard, Eglinton, Queen, Front, Weston, and Don Mills lines would create an incredibly powerful network of subways.
B
Brighter Hell
Guest
Covering every corner of the city is no way to plan a subway network. Subways should go where demand warrants, not to far-flung corners of the map where riders are few and far between. There are so many ways of providing rapid transit - light rail, commuter rail, DMU, urban rail like in Germany or Australia, BRT - that building full-fledged subways anywhere but the high density neighbourhoods that can support them is a waste of time.