[lordmandeep]

there is nothing wrong with factory unions.

However Unions that are massively large like the TTC are not better then big corporations in terms of how useless and corrupt they are to society...

 

[Panzerfaust]

Yes, but what he said was not "I hate massive corrupt unions", which I agree with. What he said was "I hate unions", and given that this is the internet, I could see him being some edgy guy who actually thinks all unions are worthless and should be abolished.

 

[lordmandeep]

yes unions have a reason to exist in factories.

However I do agree that the city unions are sucking the life out of the city and are holding it back. In terms of being outdated, inefficient and way to costly.

 

[nfitz]

Given the chronic staff shortages on the driver side that the TTC has been suffering in the last few years (though there seems to be some improvement in this of late), I'd think a 3% increase is quite moderate, and seems in line with other settlements. One could argue it should be significantly higher from a supply and demand perspective.

Not sure why some think factory unions are okay, and municipal employee unions aren't. If you look at the car industry, Toyota and Honda have similiar salaries and benefits to GM, Ford, and Chrysler, without the unions. Some of the legacy stuff the unions have forced on the old US Big 3, makes those US imports uneconomic compared to Toyota and Honda domestic cars.

 

[Therion]

Unions were instrumental in bringing workers out of the hell that was the industrial revolution (as was Marx). At this point, though, labour laws have caught up with labour reality (perhaps surpassed them, even), and I personally believe that they are outdated social structures. That Barber guy had a great article in the Globe today about how everyone seemed to be laughing and joking at the negotiations. He thinks they knew everything was go, they were just inducing stress in everyone to prove their jobs are important. Hard to disagree.

 

[Panzerfaust]

I would disagree with the idea that unions are outdated. My dad works at Canada Post, and the amount of help he's gotten from his union is absurd. His bosses are a bunch of dicks who reprimand him for retarded reasons, blow him off when he complains, only to cave the second they see a union rep. I'm not talking him messing up and getting yelled at normally. I'm talking them trying to reprimand him for taking a sick day when he was completely entitled to one due to, you know, actually being sick. Note that they do this every single time, even if he has a doctor's note. He has gone higher up as far as he can go, but nothing has changed, so his only recourse is getting the union in there to straighten the bosses out. The bosses have also tried to suspend him for refusing to deliver a house with an unchained, extremely angry dog in the yard, tried to call him in for an interview after he got three hours overtime for sitting in a cab that was stuck in traffic on the highway on the way back to the station, and a whole host of other things that he was either allowed to do or were beyond his control. He has 25 years of seniority, apparently the people with less are treated even worse. Going higher never helps, so the union does.

This is my only personal example, but to me, it's the reason why unions should still exist. No matter how many labour laws may exist, there is still a lot of potential for screwing over workers.

 

[doady]

^ Unions also protect those who do a bad job and prevent advance of those who do a good job. Everyone is treated the same no matter what.

After this threat of strike, I am glad that we have several separate systems in the GTA. I used to support amalgamating systems but now I realized how bad an idea that would be. If anything, existing systems should be split up even further, especially the TTC and MT.

 

[Tuscani01]

^ Unions also protect those who do a bad job and prevent advance of those who do a good job. Everyone is treated the same no matter what.

After this threat of strike, I am glad that we have several separate systems in the GTA. I used to support amalgamating systems but now I realized how bad an idea that would be. If anything, existing systems should be split up even further, especially the TTC and MT.

We can always just amalgamate and make transit a required service, removing their right to strike. Or better yet, amalgamate and get rid of the unions.

 

[Panzerfaust]

^ Unions also protect those who do a bad job and prevent advance of those who do a good job. Everyone is treated the same no matter what.

Right, so the people who do a good job but are mistreated by their bosses should be screwed over so that the people who do a bad job can get fired.

We can always just amalgamate and make transit a required service, removing their right to strike.

...and condemning us to weeks upon weeks of rush hour only service while a contract is getting worked out. They have the same thing in Montreal and that's what they deal with whenever the contract is up for renewal.

 

[doady]

Right, so the people who do a good job but are mistreated by their bosses should be screwed over so that the people who do a bad job can get fired.

When certain workers are allowed to do a bad job then everyone will suffer anyways. How would you feel if you were twice as productive as someone else who deliberately does as little as possible but still treated same because of the union? You might decide to lower your production by one-half and if all other workers do the same, then it won't be surprising if the company shuts down and lays everyone off.

 

[adma]

And of course, those folks who work at Kleenex have their own serviet union. Ha, ha. Serviet union

 

[Panzerfaust]

When certain workers are allowed to do a bad job then everyone will suffer anyways. How would you feel if you were twice as productive as someone else who deliberately does as little as possible but still treated same because of the union? You might decide to lower your production by one-half and if all other workers do the same, then it won't be surprising if the company shuts down and lays everyone off.

I would consider the protection to be worth the drawbacks, personally.

 

[nfitz]

.... My dad works at Canada Post, and the amount of help he's gotten from his union is absurd.

I hear stories like this in unionized work-places from time to time. What's odd, is that I don't hear stories like this much from non-unionized workplaces. It's almost like knowing that the union is going to react to this stuff, almost encourages management to be much more confrontational with staff, rather than having to be responsible.

Not saying this as pro-union or anti-union - just an interesting dynamic.

 

[OnceAThief]

"This particular union can be dicks sometimes, thus I hate all unions."

Nice one there. I, for one, enjoyed the days of zero protection for workers. Now excuse me while I finish my treatise on Social Darwinism and read up on those latest diplomatic tensions between Serbia and Austria-Hungary.

The problem with unions is that they always use others as hostages to get what they want. In the case of the TTC, they see quite fit to shut down the whole city and affect people's well being and livlihood. Everyone that relies on the TTC should be seething about this. I was ready to buy a bike this week, but the strike was averted.

I'm sure they once had their time and place, but that time and place is long gone and Unions have turned into nothing more than a bunch of organized thug militias. I've worked in a Union shop for 10 years and i have to say that unionized workplaces have way more than their share of lazy bums who think they are entitled to everything. You ever wonder why you hear so many bad stories about rude TTC workers? It's no coincidence.

Besides all this, I don't even agree with the fundamental idea of a union. Business has got to flow and unions impede that.

 

[Blovertis]

Given the chronic staff shortages on the driver side that the TTC has been suffering in the last few years (though there seems to be some improvement in this of late), I'd think a 3% increase is quite moderate...

From StatsCan:

"Consumer prices rose 1.4% on average in the 12 months to March 2008, the fourth consecutive month in which the rate of growth has decelerated. This was the slowest rate of growth since January 2007."

Wage increases exceeding the rate of inflation year after year are not sustainable over the long term. Once again, the City has caved in, giving us yet another scene in the slow-motion decline of the TTC. Overpaid, unmotivated workers are sucking up scarce resources that would be better spent on capital and operational improvements.