[canucks83]

There's 3 or 4 stops that seem unnecessary on each. But remember it's supposed to replace buses for the most part.


Look at a to-scale map. The spacing at the ends of the line is already far greater than you usually see in Montreal. Victoria Park to Warden is well over 2 km. Warden to Kennedy is about 2.7 km! (I think there should have been a station half-way at Birchmount).

Then for the three new stations that are under construction, the distances are about 3.6 km to the new Lawrence East station at McCowan (way too far - should have been one at 1.5 km near where Brimley/Eglinton/McCowan Road meet). Then 2.3 km to Scarborough Centre, and finally 1.6 km to Sheppard West.

To compare to the end of Orange line along Decarie, that would be like putting the final station at Cote-Vertu, the second station at the Met, between du College and de la Savanne. The third station at Plamondon (skipping Namur), and the fourth station at Sherbrooke (skipping Cote Ste-Catherine, Snowdown, and Villa Maria)! So what is a 3-station extension in Toronto, takes almost 8 stations in Montreal. The two stations (Kennedy and Warden) would add an extra 4.7 km, so it's like Lucien-l'Allier to Cote Vertu being only 5 stations compared to 12! And that includes the 1.4 km from Place St-Henri to Vendome - which I believe is the longest distance between any two Metro stations on the island.


As far as I know, the only $billion plus expansion projects currently underway in Montreal are the 26-station (67 km) REM, and the 5-station/5-km Blue Line extension (that was shown on the Metro map on trains as coming soon when I lived there 40-years ago!).

Off-hand, there are seven $1-billion+ projects just for subway/LRT under construction in Toronto by the province. These include:

• 7.5-km Line 2 Scarborough subway extension (3 stations)
• 15.6-km Ontario Line (future Line 3?) subway (15 stations)
• 19-km Eglinton (Line 5), of which about 10 km is subway and 9 km is LRT (13 subway stations, 10 surface stops, and 2 underground LRT stations)
• 10-km Finch West (Line 6) LRT (16 stops and 2 underground stations)
• 9-km Eglinton West (Line 5 extension), which all subway (7 stations)
• 7.5-km Yonge North (Line 1 extension) subway extension (4, 5, or 6 stations) (not really under construction yet, but early works are underway, and tendering is going)
• 18-km Hurontario LRT (19 stops)

In the recent budget the province also committed to:

• 7-km Sheppard (Line 4 extension) subway to Sheppard West (6 to 9 stations)
• 4-km Eglinton West (Line 5 extension) subway to Pearson (3 or 4 stations) (well, mostly elevated).

That's almost 100 km of new rapid transit - 85 km under construction. That seems far more significant than the REM and Blue Line.

But don't forget the city-lead projects:

• new Line 2 platform and station rebuild at Bloor-Yonge has started and will be over $1-billion.
• proposed Waterfront East/West streetcar/LRT work ... the new station at Union and the rest of the lines will be over $1-billion. (though who knows how and where Waterfront West will go)
• proposed 19-km Eglinton East LRT (city is calling Line 7 currently) - 22 stops, with possible 3.4 km second phase to connect to Sheppard West station

But - most significantly - the REM spacing is much closer to Commuter Rail than metro. Toronto is in the middle of a huge $14 billion (or likely much more) conversion of 5 of the commuter lines, to RER-like service (all-day, every 15-minutes or better). Under construction are:

• Kitchener line - 30 km and 5 stations to Bramalea, plus new stations at King/Liberty and Mount Dennis.
• Lakeshore West line - 51 km and 9 stations to Burlington (and at least hourly another 20 km to Confederation in Hamilton).
• Lakeshore East - 50 km and and 9 stations to Oshawa, plus a new station at East Harbour, plus a less frequent 20-km extension with 4 new stations to Bowmanville
• Stouffville line - 30 km and 5 stations to Unionville - plus a new station at Finch
• Barrie line - 66km and 9 stations to Bradford - plus 3 new stations (Spadina, Bloor/Lansdowne, and Caledonia).

Oddly, the federal government promised funding to convert a sixth commuter line, which the province has yet to commit to:

• Milton line - 50 km and 7 stations to Milton

Even without Milton that's over 220 km of frequent transit on GO and about 420 more km with less frequent service.

But there's also many other projects in the planning stage. Look at the Regional Transportation Plan - https://www.ontario.ca/page/connecting-ggh-transportation-plan-greater-golden-horseshoe

The latest version lists dozens more projects (many are BRT), but also including:

• 16.5-km Jane (city is calling Line 8) LRT with over 25 stops. Some south of Eglinton will have to be subway
• 6-km Finch West extension (Line 6) east to Yonge
• 8-km Finch West extension (Line 6) west to Pearson
• 3-km Hurontario LRT extension to Brampton
• 65-km Ontario Line (future Line 3) extensions to 407, Pearson, and Kipling (which I have a hard time believing to be honest)

Perhaps it's Montreal that will have some catch up to do. Though the long-promised 2-km two-station Orange Line extension to Bois-Franc would be a good start. And the even longer-promised 7-km five(?) station Blue line extension to LaSalle.

For me rapid transit should not replaces bus but complement it. I think it’s an art finding the right balance of stations and locations considering the cost and future developments and also the desires of it’s residents.
—
The REM will run at every few minutes so it’s not commuter rail and the new trains will be automatic with screen doors. Most of the REM on Montreal Island. Will be interesting to see if GO will be able to match the frequency. They are planning for 15 minutes or better. How much better remains to be seen.

For MTL, we should also consider REM de l’est 32 KM currently in the planning stage to end by 2029 so before the Ontario Line and potentially REM 2.0 South, however, I am not sure how likely it going to be build yet considering Laval wants one also. Would be great but I do not think it’s realist to have 4 REM, at least not for now.
—
Toronto have a lot of projects but I am not a fan of their LRT’s, particularly Eglinton. Build like a subway for half the line, then at street level with no grade separation for the other half. The whole project very expansive but look “cheap”. It’s Canada’s biggest city. Toronto should have another subway East-West. Having said that I love how this line will connect with many subways lines. Looking at the cup half full, it’s definitely going to have a positive impact (after the construction end), but it could have been so much better and way more transformative.

The most exiting project for me GO Expansion as you mention so well. Cannot wait to see how things will unfolded. So much potential. Toronto could lead in regional rail in North America bar none!

Bloor-Yonge station renovation very exiting but Montreal doesn’t have those issues. Our stations have been better design from the get go to last over time. The closure of line 3 just an example for me of bad planning in transit by Toronto lacking at time long term vision. For differents reason, the same thing may be said for Eglinton.

I agree with you for the orange line in MTL. I live in Ahuntsic. Cartierville, part of my borough, way under serve. Always some rumours to extend the line north but nothing serious yet.

My “criticisms” for Toronto out of love. So many interesting projects. But Toronto should not stop and keep it up because transportation projects always take forever to build in Canada.

 

[drum118]

For me rapid transit should not replaces bus but complement it. I think it’s an art finding the right balance of stations and locations considering the cost and future developments and also the desires of it’s residents.
—
The REM will run at every few minutes so it’s not commuter rail and the new trains will be automatic with screen doors. Most of the REM on Montreal Island. Will be interesting to see if GO will be able to match the frequency. They are planning for 15 minutes or better. How much better remains to be seen.

For MTL, we should also consider REM de l’est 32 KM currently in the planning stage to end by 2029 so before the Ontario Line and potentially REM 2.0 South, however, I am not sure how likely it going to be build yet considering Laval wants one also. Would be great but I do not think it’s realist to have 4 REM, at least not for now.
—
Toronto have a lot of projects but I am not a fan of their LRT’s, particularly Eglinton. Build like a subway for half the line, then at street level with no grade separation for the other half. The whole project very expansive but look “cheap”. It’s Canada’s biggest city. Toronto should have another subway East-West. Having said that I love how this line will connect with many subways lines. Looking at the cup half full, it’s definitely going to have a positive impact (after the construction end), but it could have been so much better and way more transformative.

The most exiting project for me GO Expansion as you mention so well. Cannot wait to see how things will unfolded. So much potential. Toronto could lead in regional rail in North America bar none!

Bloor-Yonge station renovation very exiting but Montreal doesn’t have those issues. Our stations have been better design from the get go to last over time. The closure of line 3 just an example for me of bad planning in transit by Toronto lacking at time long term vision. For differents reason, the same thing may be said for Eglinton.

I agree with you for the orange line in MTL. I live in Ahuntsic. Cartierville, part of my borough, way under serve. Always some rumours to extend the line north but nothing serious yet.

My “criticisms” for Toronto out of love. So many interesting projects. But Toronto should not stop and keep it up because transportation projects always take forever to build in Canada.

Bill Davis Cancel TTC Streetcar Line for Line 3 as he wanted to showcase the RT so it could be sold world wide that turn into another fail market project.

What the different between Frankfurt U 4 & 7 lines that run on the surface in the same corridor with TTC stop spacing compare to the Crosstown Line?? You are talking about an 450' train.

At some point, you have to change technology when ridership outstrip what buses can move, but it needs to be the right one. The problem with Toronto to date, it fails to look at other option and goes from buses to subway when the ridership will never be there in the first place. If you are going to have subway stops over a 1km apart, you need to run parallel bus surface.

TTC stations were never vision to have the high demand we see at major locations today as well the line itself. I have found a number of MTL major station don't have the same high ridership as TTV and have never had the chance to look at each one to see what the ridership look like do to lack of time.

Where would TTC be today if it kept building 1km yearly for the last 30 years and this includes BRT, LRT and subways??? Someone has to pay for the construction of that 1km with TTC holding the empty wallet to do it, let alone operate it.

 

[crs1026]

Is there a point where subway lines become “too long”? I worry that our fascination with stretching Lines 1 and 2 ad infinitum will bite us eventually.

And unless there is an intent to really max out density all along the length of a line, a network that stretches between distant density hubs ought to look more like a regional system than a traditional subway. Stop spacing is a function of density. The challenge is how to provide thr regional role on a line that stops a lot.

- Paul

 

[JSF-1]

Is there a point where subway lines become “too long”? I worry that our fascination with stretching Lines 1 and 2 ad infinitum will bite us eventually.

And unless there is an intent to really max out density all along the length of a line, a network that stretches between distant density hubs ought to look more like a regional system than a traditional subway. Stop spacing is a function of density. The challenge is how to provide thr regional role on a line that stops a lot.

- Paul

Well that's a question that has a verity of factors attached to it, such as stop spacing, number of stops, and if express runs are possible. It's why for example the A Train in New York can be 52 km long since no train runs local along the entire length during the day. Only at night when ridership is lowest and service frequency is like 1 train ever 20-30 minutes does that happen. I think for example Line 1 is a subway that will be pretty much at its maximum length when the extension to Richmond Hill opens. Anything beyond that will just become inefficient for riders to use and the TTC to operate. Express service can greatly increase the operating length of subway but even that has its limits since the operating speed of a subway doesn't typically reach the speeds of commuter or intercity rail. A city like Tokyo or Seoul being the exceptions where the subway and commuter lines become one and the same outside the central city.

 

[T3G]

I don't know that the A train should be what we seek to emulate. It would probably benefit, in terms of operational efficiency, to be cut back to somewhere in downtown Brooklyn and have the shorter C take the strain, but then you'd get people complaining that making all stops would make the journey take longer. It's kind of a no-win situation.

On the issue of Toronto lines, I find the suggestions for all the suburban expansions to be ludicrous. No one in their right mind would use that to get downtown instead of GO unless they have no other choices.

 

[afransen]

The TTC ruled out this particular version of the Line 2 extension the last time it look at expanding Line 2. Though, these things are always subject to revision. The last look-see was 20 years ago.

View attachment 450583
From: https://transittoronto.ca/archives/reports/rtes2002.pdf

In this option, the stations were appoximately~ 3km apart, 1.8km apart, 2.3km apart, 2.1km apart and 1.4km apart.

Given that this is paralleling a GO Line, with wide station spacing, to me it says we should focus on upgrading the GO service, and use vehicles that are more suitable to higher speeds and wide station spacing.

 

[Deadpool X]

There's 3 or 4 stops that seem unnecessary on each. But remember it's supposed to replace buses for the most part.


Look at a to-scale map. The spacing at the ends of the line is already far greater than you usually see in Montreal. Victoria Park to Warden is well over 2 km. Warden to Kennedy is about 2.7 km! (I think there should have been a station half-way at Birchmount).

Then for the three new stations that are under construction, the distances are about 3.6 km to the new Lawrence East station at McCowan (way too far - should have been one at 1.5 km near where Brimley/Eglinton/McCowan Road meet). Then 2.3 km to Scarborough Centre, and finally 1.6 km to Sheppard West.

To compare to the end of Orange line along Decarie, that would be like putting the final station at Cote-Vertu, the second station at the Met, between du College and de la Savanne. The third station at Plamondon (skipping Namur), and the fourth station at Sherbrooke (skipping Cote Ste-Catherine, Snowdown, and Villa Maria)! So what is a 3-station extension in Toronto, takes almost 8 stations in Montreal. The two stations (Kennedy and Warden) would add an extra 4.7 km, so it's like Lucien-l'Allier to Cote Vertu being only 5 stations compared to 12! And that includes the 1.4 km from Place St-Henri to Vendome - which I believe is the longest distance between any two Metro stations on the island.


As far as I know, the only $billion plus expansion projects currently underway in Montreal are the 26-station (67 km) REM, and the 5-station/5-km Blue Line extension (that was shown on the Metro map on trains as coming soon when I lived there 40-years ago!).

Off-hand, there are seven $1-billion+ projects just for subway/LRT under construction in Toronto by the province. These include:

• 7.5-km Line 2 Scarborough subway extension (3 stations)
• 15.6-km Ontario Line (future Line 3?) subway (15 stations)
• 19-km Eglinton (Line 5), of which about 10 km is subway and 9 km is LRT (13 subway stations, 10 surface stops, and 2 underground LRT stations)
• 10-km Finch West (Line 6) LRT (16 stops and 2 underground stations)
• 9-km Eglinton West (Line 5 extension), which all subway (7 stations)
• 7.5-km Yonge North (Line 1 extension) subway extension (4, 5, or 6 stations) (not really under construction yet, but early works are underway, and tendering is going)
• 18-km Hurontario LRT (19 stops)

In the recent budget the province also committed to:

• 7-km Sheppard (Line 4 extension) subway to Sheppard West (6 to 9 stations)
• 4-km Eglinton West (Line 5 extension) subway to Pearson (3 or 4 stations) (well, mostly elevated).

That's almost 100 km of new rapid transit - 85 km under construction. That seems far more significant than the REM and Blue Line.

But don't forget the city-lead projects:

• new Line 2 platform and station rebuild at Bloor-Yonge has started and will be over $1-billion.
• proposed Waterfront East/West streetcar/LRT work ... the new station at Union and the rest of the lines will be over $1-billion. (though who knows how and where Waterfront West will go)
• proposed 19-km Eglinton East LRT (city is calling Line 7 currently) - 22 stops, with possible 3.4 km second phase to connect to Sheppard West station

But - most significantly - the REM spacing is much closer to Commuter Rail than metro. Toronto is in the middle of a huge $14 billion (or likely much more) conversion of 5 of the commuter lines, to RER-like service (all-day, every 15-minutes or better). Under construction are:

• Kitchener line - 30 km and 5 stations to Bramalea, plus new stations at King/Liberty and Mount Dennis.
• Lakeshore West line - 51 km and 9 stations to Burlington (and at least hourly another 20 km to Confederation in Hamilton).
• Lakeshore East - 50 km and and 9 stations to Oshawa, plus a new station at East Harbour, plus a less frequent 20-km extension with 4 new stations to Bowmanville
• Stouffville line - 30 km and 5 stations to Unionville - plus a new station at Finch
• Barrie line - 66km and 9 stations to Bradford - plus 3 new stations (Spadina, Bloor/Lansdowne, and Caledonia).

Oddly, the federal government promised funding to convert a sixth commuter line, which the province has yet to commit to:

• Milton line - 50 km and 7 stations to Milton

Even without Milton that's over 220 km of frequent transit on GO and about 420 more km with less frequent service.

But there's also many other projects in the planning stage. Look at the Regional Transportation Plan - https://www.ontario.ca/page/connecting-ggh-transportation-plan-greater-golden-horseshoe

The latest version lists dozens more projects (many are BRT), but also including:

• 16.5-km Jane (city is calling Line 8) LRT with over 25 stops. Some south of Eglinton will have to be subway
• 6-km Finch West extension (Line 6) east to Yonge
• 8-km Finch West extension (Line 6) west to Pearson
• 3-km Hurontario LRT extension to Brampton
• 65-km Ontario Line (future Line 3) extensions to 407, Pearson, and Kipling (which I have a hard time believing to be honest)

Perhaps it's Montreal that will have some catch up to do. Though the long-promised 2-km two-station Orange Line extension to Bois-Franc would be a good start. And the even longer-promised 7-km five(?) station Blue line extension to LaSalle.

You have made some good points but have you also considered the fact that GTA is twice as populous as Montreal's metropolitan area? GTA clearly won't have twice the network size. It will take 5-7 more years for GTA to match Montreal's transit network once REM is complete, let alone exceed it. Even Vancouver has a bigger Sky Train network than TTC subway (which is will soon get even shorter after Line 3 suspends operations). Given the population, GTA should have had 200+ km of subway if you want to match Montreal or Vancouver's transit.

Also, a good portion of the rapid transit lines that we are counting in Toronto's expansion are surface LRTs which are not much better than streetcars. Sky Train, Montreal Metro and REM have fully grade separated corridors.

Also, we shouldn't count GO trains in the same breath as a subway. 15 min frequency is still commuter rail frequency. You can't just show up at the station and wait for 15 min. You will have to time your arrival at the station.

 

[ARG1]

The REM will run at every few minutes so it’s not commuter rail and the new trains will be automatic with screen doors. Most of the REM on Montreal Island. Will be interesting to see if GO will be able to match the frequency. They are planning for 15 minutes or better. How much better remains to be seen.

Also, we shouldn't count GO trains in the same breath as a subway. 15 min frequency is still commuter rail frequency. You can't just show up at the station and wait for 15 min. You will have to time your arrival at the station.

The Thing is Metrolinx is no longer just touting the 15m headways number, and has now upped its claims with an average of 5 min headways during peak. Their latest numbers suggest 10500 total trains passing through Union Station post GO Expansion. If we assume that GO will run twice the service during rush hours, as well as twice the service on LSW, LSE, and Kitchener (Local + Express services), that still leaves a line like Barrie having at least 8tph off-peak or ~7.5m (peak hours are 6-9am, 4-7pm, for simplicity I did not factor in late night trips at all, and weekend trips I counted as a normal weekday. I also completely forgot to factor in the Richmond Hill and Milton Lines, but in general the number should be close enough). For context, that is the same headway as the Deux-Montagnes branch of the REM (the most frequent branch on the network). From the little we know, it seems like this will be achieved by running shorter trains a lot more frequently, something on the levels of 3 coach train. This is done in order to have higher frequencies, as well as to make better use of the electric locomotives (higher speeds due to pulling smaller trains). In other words, I do think it is fair game to compare GO Expansion with the Subway/REM. And yes, while it is important to note Toronto's much bigger population, Toronto is still only 2x larger than Montreal, whilst having far more than 2x the transit investment.

The following is a map from @Willybru21 that shows theoretical headways during rush hours based on the numbers given by Metrolinx. Seems Relevant enough.

 

[sixrings]

Is there a point where subway lines become “too long”? I worry that our fascination with stretching Lines 1 and 2 ad infinitum will bite us eventually.

And unless there is an intent to really max out density all along the length of a line, a network that stretches between distant density hubs ought to look more like a regional system than a traditional subway. Stop spacing is a function of density. The challenge is how to provide thr regional role on a line that stops a lot.

- Pau

The Thing is Metrolinx is no longer just touting the 15m headways number, and has now upped its claims with an average of 5 min headways during peak. Their latest numbers suggest 10500 total trains passing through Union Station post GO Expansion. If we assume that GO will run twice the service during rush hours, as well as twice the service on LSW, LSE, and Kitchener (Local + Express services), that still leaves a line like Barrie having at least 8tph off-peak or ~7.5m (peak hours are 6-9am, 4-7pm, for simplicity I did not factor in late night trips at all, and weekend trips I counted as a normal weekday. I also completely forgot to factor in the Richmond Hill and Milton Lines, but in general the number should be close enough). For context, that is the same headway as the Deux-Montagnes branch of the REM (the most frequent branch on the network). From the little we know, it seems like this will be achieved by running shorter trains a lot more frequently, something on the levels of 3 coach train. This is done in order to have higher frequencies, as well as to make better use of the electric locomotives (higher speeds due to pulling smaller trains). In other words, I do think it is fair game to compare GO Expansion with the Subway/REM. And yes, while it is important to note Toronto's much bigger population, Toronto is still only 2x larger than Montreal, whilst having far more than 2x the transit investment.

The following is a map from @Willybru21 that shows theoretical headways during rush hours based on the numbers given by Metrolinx. Seems Relevant enough.

View attachment 450623

So based on your map you think square one residents should be thrilled about 15 minute frequencies (btw the station isn’t even at square one) yet eglinton east lrt is a fail with better frequencies.

 

[Deadpool X]

And yes, while it is important to note Toronto's much bigger population, Toronto is still only 2x larger than Montreal, whilst having far more than 2x the transit investment.

Toronto is having to spend more than 2X because of under-investment in the last few decades.

As far as GO frequencies are concerned, I am skeptical of those numbers. If demand doesn't pick up as much as they expected, they won't be running as many trains. I'll believe it when I see it. I don't believe GO will become comparable with Paris RER in frequencies.

 

[ARG1]

So based on your map you think square one residents should be thrilled about 15 minute frequencies (btw the station isn’t even at square one) yet eglinton east lrt is a fail with better frequencies.

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

1) Not my map

2) When have I ever suggested that Square One is good with 15 mins, or that this map represents some kind of ideal? The reason the Milton Line has 15 min frequencies is because CP owns the line, and as such it won't be getting RERified (no electrification, no frequent all day service). This is a map based off the service patterns that Metrolinx has announced + reasonable deduction, not a fantasy map. If I had my way and was able to force my own transit project, yes I would absolutely build the missing link, force CP to use it, and get 5 min headways on the Milton Line + possibly build a GO tunnel to Square One, but that's not the world we live in, and that's not what's happening.

3) I have never called Eglinton East a fail - I have repeatedly said that Scarborough-Malvern was one of the few good ideas that came from Transit City. My only stipulation is the priority, given all of the projects going on in Scarborough, does it need to be built now, or is it a project that we can think about 10-15 years from now?

 

[canucks83]

You have made some good points but have you also considered the fact that GTA is twice as populous as Montreal's metropolitan area? GTA clearly won't have twice the network size. It will take 5-7 more years for GTA to match Montreal's transit network once REM is complete, let alone exceed it. Even Vancouver has a bigger Sky Train network than TTC subway (which is will soon get even shorter after Line 3 suspends operations). Given the population, GTA should have had 200+ km of subway if you want to match Montreal or Vancouver's transit.

Also, a good portion of the rapid transit lines that we are counting in Toronto's expansion are surface LRTs which are not much better than streetcars. Sky Train, Montreal Metro and REM have fully grade separated corridors.

Also, we shouldn't count GO trains in the same breath as a subway. 15 min frequency is still commuter rail frequency. You can't just show up at the station and wait for 15 min. You will have to time your arrival at the station.

I am pretty much in agreement with you. My understanding is GO aiming at 15 or less but

Well that's a question that has a verity of factors attached to it, such as stop spacing, number of stops, and if express runs are possible. It's why for example the A Train in New York can be 52 km long since no train runs local along the entire length during the day. Only at night when ridership is lowest and service frequency is like 1 train ever 20-30 minutes does that happen. I think for example Line 1 is a subway that will be pretty much at its maximum length when the extension to Richmond Hill opens. Anything beyond that will just become inefficient for riders to use and the TTC to operate. Express service can greatly increase the operating length of subway but even that has its limits since the operating speed of a subway doesn't typically reach the speeds of commuter or intercity rail. A city like Tokyo or Seoul being the exceptions where the subway and commuter lines become one and the same outside the central city.

I do agree line 1 would have reach it’s maximum length. If it need to be extented

The Thing is Metrolinx is no longer just touting the 15m headways number, and has now upped its claims with an average of 5 min headways during peak. Their latest numbers suggest 10500 total trains passing through Union Station post GO Expansion. If we assume that GO will run twice the service during rush hours, as well as twice the service on LSW, LSE, and Kitchener (Local + Express services), that still leaves a line like Barrie having at least 8tph off-peak or ~7.5m (peak hours are 6-9am, 4-7pm, for simplicity I did not factor in late night trips at all, and weekend trips I counted as a normal weekday. I also completely forgot to factor in the Richmond Hill and Milton Lines, but in general the number should be close enough). For context, that is the same headway as the Deux-Montagnes branch of the REM (the most frequent branch on the network). From the little we know, it seems like this will be achieved by running shorter trains a lot more frequently, something on the levels of 3 coach train. This is done in order to have higher frequencies, as well as to make better use of the electric locomotives (higher speeds due to pulling smaller trains). In other words, I do think it is fair game to compare GO Expansion with the Subway/REM. And yes, while it is important to note Toronto's much bigger population, Toronto is still only 2x larger than Montreal, whilst having far more than 2x the transit investment.

The following is a map from @Willybru21 that shows theoretical headways during rush hours based on the numbers given by Metrolinx. Seems Relevant enough.

View attachment 450623

It’s not just a question of investment in $ but how it’s done and integrated. An LRT with no grade separation half the line and partially underground doesn’t look like a sound investment. It could have been so much better.

The REM will offer 2.5 mins during peak and 5 mins off peak 20 hours a day, 7 days a week on the main line. If GO can offer service along this line then yes it will surpass Montreal by far considering all the other projects going on.

The MAP very interesting but it’s my understanding it’s still theoretical. On their website Metrolinx still advertising 15 mins. But yes I know their goal to be be even faster than that and this is pretty exciting. Cannot wait to see how things will unfold for GO. So much potential.

 

[ARG1]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1550133563038658565

Anyway... we're getting off topic from the thread.

 

[W. K. Lis]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1550133563038658565

View attachment 450635

Anyway... we're getting off topic from the thread.

Let's hope they fix up the door closing timing problem.

 

[nfitz]

The REM will run at every few minutes so it’s not commuter rail ...

At peak ... GO will also be better than every 15 minutes at peak. The REM's planned off-peak frequency on all 3 of the branches into West Island and Laval are every 15 minutes, off-peak. I'm not seeing much difference here, other than the rolling stock. And we are yet to see what the the new GO rolling stock (and with about 1,000 rail cars, the changeover will be gradual; compare to about 200 coaches for Exo).

]For MTL, we should also consider REM de l’est 32 KM currently in the planning stage to end by 2029 so before the Ontario Line and potentially REM 2.0 South, however, I am not sure how likely it going to be build yet considering Laval wants one also. Would be great but I do not think it’s realist to have 4 REM, at least not for now.

Planning stage and entering operation are to different things. Over 40 years ago, when I lived in Montreal, the 5-station blue line extension was also in planning stage, to open before the end of the decade. And until that point, the 10 (or so) Blue Line extension to Montreal-Nord had been in the planning stage in a similar timeframe, along with the Blue Line extension to LaSalle. Also VIA's high-speed train from Quebec City to Windsor was in planning stage for a 1989 opening. The section of the REM from Central to West Island (along the old CN alignment) was in planning stage in the early 1960s, for an opening before 1970 - ironically including the spur to Cartierville. The south-section from Central to Autoroute 30 was in planning stage from about 2000 (as a seperate line at that point). Also in planning stage was a connection from near the VIA Dorval station to Trudeau International.

Nominal opening dates during planning don't really have much meaning. (Toronto is no better ... we are now building a subway along Queen; a subway along Queen was approved in the 1946 referendum, along with the one along Yonge; we are now building for subway-like frequencies on the Lakeshore line ... which were promised by the province (Bill Davis and James Snow) back in the 1970s in exchange for cancelling the Scarborough subway, before itself then being cancelled by Premier Miller (and James Snow) back in the mid-1980s.

Toronto have a lot of projects but I am not a fan of their LRT’s, particularly Eglinton. Build like a subway for half the line, then at street level with no grade separation for the other half.

Even without the surface LRTs, the growth is significant. The problem is, that there simply isn't the demand for a full-scale subway that far north. Eglinton is over 6 km north of Queen Street. It's like building a line along the 520 and 40 from Dorval to the 25. The problem is, only the central section is close to supporting subway. Let's see how it operates before damning it. Meanwhile Finch West is 14.5 km north of Queen. That's like building a line along the 440 in central Laval! It would never happen as subway - not that long at least.

Meanwhile they are now talking about an east-west segment of the Ontario Line subway along the 407 - about 21 km north of Queen. Which is why I'm suspicious that it will happen anytime in my lifetime, when express buses and the planned bus transitway can do the job for a long, long time. Mind you, that's pretty much what was promised in the 1970s.

The whole project very expansive but look “cheap”.

Wait - doesn't Line 2 look cheap? The renderings and photos I've seen for the subway portions of Line 5 look far better to me. Sure, the end of the line, in the east, is surface LRT. But how would it hurt the Montreal Green line, if it continued as surface, in the middle of the street, 10-km from Angrignon to Dorval? I bet those who live between there would have preferred that solution, than having to bus it for 60 years (or long, as I'm not away of any extension plans). Those who use the current Green Line don't have any less of a line because of it. (obviously it's not possible without changing the rolling stock to something with steel wheels).

The most exiting project for me GO Expansion as you mention so well. Cannot wait to see how things will unfolded. So much potential. Toronto could lead in regional rail in North America bar none!

It's certainly very interesting - and also very much below-the-radar for many people.

Bloor-Yonge station renovation very exiting but Montreal doesn’t have those issues. Our stations have been better design from the get go to last over time.

It's no secret that Bloor-Yonge was a huge design mistake - it was never intended to function as a large interchange station. The transfers in Montreal at Lionel-Groulx and Snowdon are brilliant! Though changing from the Orange Line to the Yellow Line at Berri could have been a lot better than walking a full block underground from Berri to St. Denis - especially since they were designed simultaneously! The two lines should have been stacked, similar to Lionel-Groulx ... or at least St. Andrew. And the transfer from Bonaventure (or McGill) to Central Station isn't very well planned at all - even after the improvement to avoid Place Bonaventure. Nor the connection at Lucien L'Allier (ironically the now impossible connection to Windsor Station was better). Montreal certainly has issues - different issues. The only reason the Yellow/Orange transfer isn't a big problem, is the Yellow Line ridership is so low. Similar to Line 3 and Line 4 in Toronto. But if they'd built the proposed extensions at both ends, they would have to be improving that one as well!

I agree with you for the orange line in MTL. I live in Ahuntsic. Cartierville, part of my borough, way under serve. Always some rumours to extend the line north but nothing serious yet.

Perhaps if they were serious about surface LRT in Montreal, a service down St. Laurent or along Henri-Bourassa would be an option! At one point, they were talking about an Orange Line station at Gouin, north of Bois-Franc ... but I don't even hear talk about that these days.

My “criticisms” for Toronto out of love. So many interesting projects. But Toronto should not stop and keep it up because transportation projects always take forever to build in Canada.

Ditto about Montreal. There's certainly other projects on the radar in Toronto, that aren't in the official plans. A Line 4 extension to Sheppard West. The Line 2 extension west that we are talking about in this thread. TTC has designed both the Line 1 extensions to allow for future extensions further north - heck, some of the Yonge extension plans include a tunnel all the way to the next station box at 16th Avenue (for vehicle storage, but designed for conversion for service). And there's talk of Major MacKenzie. GO is still studying a new Bolton GO line, and there's talk of a Peterborough line as well (most likely as a spur of the Stouffville line now, rather than through Leaside), along with service into Cambridge. GO has even talked about a spur from the Milton line into Square One, along the alignment shown above for Line 2 from the Milton line to Square One! I'm not sure why Mississauga doesn't advocate for subways and GO service ... you'd think they could swing that politically, compared to what York and Scarborough has pulled off. Hurontario isn't any further from St. George station as the new Sheppard West station will be.