[nfitz]

Also, we shouldn't count GO trains in the same breath as a subway. 15 min frequency is still commuter rail frequency. You can't just show up at the station and wait for 15 min. You will have to time your arrival at the station.

Personally, once they (pre-Covid) went to mid-day 15-minute service from Burlington to Oshawa (over 100 km) on Lakeshore, I stopped carefully planning my arrival at the station. With TTC invariably you have a 10-minute buffer anyhow ... and the average wait time went down to 8 minutes. So why try timing it?

It's the same off-peak frequency as most of the REM branches in Montreal, and every seems to think that isn't commuter rail.

 

[canucks83]

At peak ... GO will also be better than every 15 minutes at peak. The REM's planned off-peak frequency on all 3 of the branches into West Island and Laval are every 15 minutes, off-peak. I'm not seeing much difference here, other than the rolling stock. And we are yet to see what the the new GO rolling stock (and with about 1,000 rail cars, the changeover will be gradual; compare to about 200 coaches for Exo).

The REM have better frequency on South Shore and fully automatic. It’s also design to be even faster with ridership as fast as 90 seconds. Being automatic can run 20 hours a day. This is pretty fantastic. The project very cost effective making it a success to follow. I added a MAP below.

Planning stage and entering operation are to different things. Over 40 years ago, when I lived in Montreal, the 5-station blue line extension was also in planning stage, to open before the end of the decade. And until that point, the 10 (or so) Blue Line extension to Montreal-Nord had been in the planning stage in a similar timeframe, along with the Blue Line extension to LaSalle. Also VIA's high-speed train from Quebec City to Windsor was in planning stage for a 1989 opening. The section of the REM from Central to West Island (along the old CN alignment) was in planning stage in the early 1960s, for an opening before 1970 - ironically including the spur to Cartierville. The south-section from Central to Autoroute 30 was in planning stage from about 2000 (as a seperate line at that point). Also in planning stage was a connection from near the VIA Dorval station to Trudeau International.

Yes I agree it’s not the same thing, however, the success of the REM making it more likely to be build. A lot of progress have been made this year. This year will be critical in my opinion.

Nominal opening dates during planning don't really have much meaning. (Toronto is no better ... we are now building a subway along Queen; a subway along Queen was approved in the 1946 referendum, along with the one along Yonge; we are now building for subway-like frequencies on the Lakeshore line ... which were promised by the province (Bill Davis and James Snow) back in the 1970s in exchange for cancelling the Scarborough subway, before itself then being cancelled by Premier Miller (and James Snow) back in the mid-1980s.

Even without the surface LRTs, the growth is significant. The problem is, that there simply isn't the demand for a full-scale subway that far north. Eglinton is over 6 km north of Queen Street. It's like building a line along the 520 and 40 from Dorval to the 25. The problem is, only the central section is close to supporting subway. Let's see how it operates before damning it. Meanwhile Finch West is 14.5 km north of Queen. That's like building a line along the 440 in central Laval! It would never happen as subway - not that long at least.

I agree we shall see before judging however I have many concerns. If this project was cost effective It would have been a different story but no it’s a money pit without any idea when it’s going to be completed. Over 12 years and not even a subway. When we build something we should also plan ahead. Eglinton the perfect spot for a 2nd subway line East-West. If it low density now but it’s probably going to change and connect so many neighbourhood.

Being not fully separated for the full line hopefully it will not affect the western portion of the line. This could be off set if the trains can enter the tracks via different locations. Hopefully it’s the case. Will also be awesome if they find a way to make it automatic for part of the line at least.

Laval a funny place for subway the way it’s build. Not sure how a line can work, but it’s a booming city. A solution should be found for better transit. I used to work on 440 and Curé-Lae and I had to buy a car. It’s a nightmare city to get around.

Meanwhile they are now talking about an east-west segment of the Ontario Line subway along the 407 - about 21 km north of Queen. Which is why I'm suspicious that it will happen anytime in my lifetime, when express buses and the planned bus transitway can do the job for a long, long time. Mind you, that's pretty much what was promised in the 1970s.

Wait - doesn't Line 2 look cheap? The renderings and photos I've seen for the subway portions of Line 5 look far better to me. Sure, the end of the line, in the east, is surface LRT. But how would it hurt the Montreal Green line, if it continued as surface, in the middle of the street, 10-km from Angrignon to Dorval? I bet those who live between there would have preferred that solution, than having to bus it for 60 years (or long, as I'm not away of any extension plans). Those who use the current Green Line don't have any less of a line because of it. (obviously it's not possible without changing the rolling stock to something with steel wheels).

Our subway fully underground and I like it this way. I would continue the subway a few stations but REM de l’est will make this obsolete going from Hororé-Beaugrand to Pointe au trembles.

It's certainly very interesting - and also very much below-the-radar for many people.

They should eventually rebrand it. Maybe something like “GO METRO” or something flashy once the new model getting close to be a reality. To shift the mentality it’s not just for 905.

It's no secret that Bloor-Yonge was a huge design mistake - it was never intended to function as a large interchange station. The transfers in Montreal at Lionel-Groulx and Snowdon are brilliant! Though changing from the Orange Line to the Yellow Line at Berri could have been a lot better than walking a full block underground from Berri to St. Denis - especially since they were designed simultaneously! The two lines should have been stacked, similar to Lionel-Groulx ... or at least St. Andrew. And the transfer from Bonaventure (or McGill) to Central Station isn't very well planned at all - even after the improvement to avoid Place Bonaventure. Nor the connection at Lucien L'Allier (ironically the now impossible connection to Windsor Station was better). Montreal certainly has issues - different issues. The only reason the Yellow/Orange transfer isn't a big problem, is the Yellow Line ridership is so low. Similar to Line 3 and Line 4 in Toronto. But if they'd built the proposed extensions at both ends, they would have to be improving that one as well!

I agree but all other transfer are amazing. I work now downtown and used both Oranges and Green Lines and it’s work perfectly to transfer. It’s barely add to my trip.

Perhaps if they were serious about surface LRT in Montreal, a service down St. Laurent or along Henri-Bourassa would be an option! At one point, they were talking about an Orange Line station at Gouin, north of Bois-Franc ... but I don't even hear talk about that these days.

On HB the buses works very well. Unless it’s a way to save money or used electrification I do not think an LRT would save much time but may offer a better experience. I would also be concern cutting the trees in some area unless it’s underground but this may never happen.

Ditto about Montreal. There's certainly other projects on the radar in Toronto, that aren't in the official plans. A Line 4 extension to Sheppard West. The Line 2 extension west that we are talking about in this thread. TTC has designed both the Line 1 extensions to allow for future extensions further north - heck, some of the Yonge extension plans include a tunnel all the way to the next station box at 16th Avenue (for vehicle storage, but designed for conversion for service). And there's talk of Major MacKenzie. GO is still studying a new Bolton GO line, and there's talk of a Peterborough line as well (most likely as a spur of the Stouffville line now, rather than through Leaside), along with service into Cambridge. GO has even talked about a spur from the Milton line into Square One, along the alignment shown above for Line 2 from the Milton line to Square One! I'm not sure why Mississauga doesn't advocate for subways and GO service ... you'd think they could swing that politically, compared to what York and Scarborough has pulled off. Hurontario isn't any further from St. George station as the new Sheppard West station will be.
Yes it’s interesting Mississauga doesn’t advocate more. Let’s build this damn thing. Let’s Line 2 expands West and more GO. I think it’s the old mentality of suburbs that need to change…

 

[T3G]

Our subway fully underground and I like it this way.

Fully underground subways are pretty much the most expensive form of rapid transit, though.

 

[nfitz]

The REM have better frequency on South Shore and fully automatic. It’s also design to be even faster with ridership as fast as 90 seconds. Being automatic can run 20 hours a day. This is pretty fantastic. The project very cost effective making it a success to follow.

The proof will be in the pudding. I fear the caisse will cut too many corners. In fact they already have ... stopping it in Baie d'Urfe instead of St-Anne-de-Bellevue. And at the Dorval terminal instead of the no-brainer tri-modal terminal about 900 metres away.

I agree we shall see before judging however I have many concerns. If this project was cost effective It would have been a different story but no it’s a money pit without any idea when it’s going to be completed. Over 12 years and not even a subway.

No idea when it's going to be completed? The hand-over to TTC is this year. Whether they'll overlap enough to do trial running for a late 2023 opening or an early 2024 opening isn't entirely clear. Trains have been running on the entire line since late 2021. Don't take the misleading headlines in the Daily Muckraker seriously; they are both out-of-context and based on information so old, they found it buried in an old FOIA.

Is the slippage that much worse than the REM? It was supposed to open in mid-2021. And what about the Elizabeth Line.

Not exactly 12-years. The didn't sign the main contract until just over 7 years ago. This is one of the disadvantages of building subway, is the timeframes. Compare to Line 6. Early construction (and the contract award) didn't start until 2018. And it's still on-track for completion this year.

When we build something we should also plan ahead. Eglinton the perfect spot for a 2nd subway line East-West.

The Eglinton Line is 32-km long (of which 28-km is already under construction) - the Orange line in Montreal is only 30-km long, and the Green line only 22-km. Of the 32-km, all but 6-km are grade separated. That's 26 km of full subway - 23 km of it being continuous, with 23 or 24 full-scale subway stations (25 or 26 if you include the full-scale Science Centre and Kennedy stations).

The full-subway section is longer than the entire Green Line!

If it low density now but it’s probably going to change and connect so many neighbourhood.

It was designed for future density, not current density. And even then, the predicted peak ridership for 2021 was predicted to be 5,500 in the 2030s. With the ability to run 40 trains an hour (in the subway section) the ultimate capacity is about 20,000 an hour (in the peak direction). Compare to about 24,000 for the REM. (though how they plan to get 600 people in a 76-metre long REM train, compared to 500 people in a 90-metre long Eglinton train, I don't know. REM cars gain some by being high-floor and 10% wider - but 42% more passengers per metre?

Being not fully separated for the full line hopefully it will not affect the western portion of the line. This could be off set if the trains can enter the tracks via different locations. Hopefully it’s the case. Will also be awesome if they find a way to make it automatic for part of the line at least.

It appears there'll be less trains east of Laird. I don't see how there should be big issues created by the surface section.

And if there is, they could always terminate the entire line at Science Centre (and fix the dreadful Leslie Stop to reroute all the turning traffic to the north of the tracks), ending up with a 26-km full subway line. Extend the platforms at Science Centre and run the other 6 km as a separate service (no, that's not going to happen).

 

[afransen]

Toronto is having to spend more than 2X because of under-investment in the last few decades.

As far as GO frequencies are concerned, I am skeptical of those numbers. If demand doesn't pick up as much as they expected, they won't be running as many trains. I'll believe it when I see it. I don't believe GO will become comparable with Paris RER in frequencies.

Lakeshore line at 3 minute headways (not to mention higher average speeds) would be insanely popular. Basically our next subway line.

 

[afransen]

I'm not sure why Mississauga doesn't advocate for subways and GO service ... you'd think they could swing that politically,

Mississauga does, at least for Milton line upgrades. I think Line 2 to MCC would be very poor value for money by comparison, so I'm happy it is not advocated.

 

[drum118]

Mississauga does, at least for Milton line upgrades. I think Line 2 to MCC would be very poor value for money by comparison, so I'm happy it is not advocated.

Hazel shot down the free RT from Kipling in the 80's.

Only 2 councilors have stated it would be nice to have TTC come to MCC with only one pushing for one.

Council has complain for at least 2 decades the lack of GO Rail service and want to see all day service 7 days a week. They have talked more about having service from Milton to MCC than service from TO to MCC. The mayor is pushing to have CP move to the CN line more than the councilors.

There are 3 locations today where a 3rd track has been added to the corridor with various overpasses able to handle 4 tracks. The corridor can handled 4 tracks with a few location for a 5th track. Liagar was built for 2 platform with the centre one in place today. CP tracks would be on the south side of the current Liagar centre platform track.

 

[sixrings]

Hazel shot down the free RT from Kipling in the 80's.

Only 2 councilors have stated it would be nice to have TTC come to MCC with only one pushing for one.

Council has complain for at least 2 decades the lack of GO Rail service and want to see all day service 7 days a week. They have talked more about having service from Milton to MCC than service from TO to MCC. The mayor is pushing to have CP move to the CN line more than the councilors.

There are 3 locations today where a 3rd track has been added to the corridor with various overpasses able to handle 4 tracks. The corridor can handled 4 tracks with a few location for a 5th track. Liagar was built for 2 platform with the centre one in place today. CP tracks would be on the south side of the current Liagar centre platform track.

If magically they can get a GO station at burnamthorpe and hurontario then that is pretty much perfection. If not and a subway gets to Sherway then I would advocate for that to be extended.

 

[Deadpool X]

How about a route like this?

Disclaimer - This is rough drawing and I haven't planned for exact routes and turn radii, ridership potential, etc. This is just an idea.

It's a 12+ km route with 10 stations (maybe West Mall station can be skipped). I have deliberately chosen a diagonal route so that this route doesn't just cross all major north-south roads but also major east-west roads such as Bloor, Dundas and Queensway. That way it will intercept multiple north-south and east-west bus routes. The areas around the stations alone won't be enough to generate demand.

It may seem like the line is going under the houses all the way but it's only going under houses between Bloor-Cawthra and Dundas-Tomken. At other diagonal routes, it's either going under parks or industrial/commercial areas.

Can subway go under houses? I believe so because they are already doing that with Yonge Line in York Region. Once we see how Metrolinx is able to tunnel under those houses, we'll know if Metrolinx can replicate that here. The route can be planned in a way that ventilation shafts or emergency exits are somewhere on the internal streets instead of someone's backyards. They may still need to buy some people's front yards.

I have added a station at Confederation which some people may feel unnecessary. Burhamthorpe and Confederation is the centre of the density at MCC (not Square One itself). Mavis and Hurontario stations are 2 km apart so having a station in between a dense area is not superfluous. Right now there isn't that much density at Mavis but MCC is expanding west and that station will be become necessary in 20 years when this line could be built.

I am sure there would be many loopholes with this route and I would like to hear everyone's thoughts.

 

[crs1026]

It's a 12+ km route with 10 stations (maybe West Mall station can be skipped). I have deliberately chosen a diagonal route so that this route doesn't just cross all major north-south roads but also major east-west roads such as Bloor, Dundas and Queensway. That way it will intercept multiple north-south and east-west bus routes. The areas around the stations alone won't be enough to generate demand.

There is your answer right there. The density just isn't there on the route you have chosen. Intercepting bus routes doesn't raise the number of riders.

And, it's redundant to the Milton GO line and the Eglinton busway.

If the goal is to bring MCC riders to Line 2, an LRT routing either along Dundas or even along Burnhamthorpe or Bloor to Etobicoke Creek and then down through the golf course to Cloverdale is superior. (yeah, costly to expropriate - but offset by very cheap to grade a trackbed along the creek).

Your map also demonstrates just how absurd the idea of looping down to Sherway is.... if the intent is to connect to MCC, it's a diversion that runs way out of the way. Does Cadillac Fairview want all the people who will live at Sherway one day to shop at Square One?

It's another case where one has to ask, just how much LRT could one build for the same money as what you are proposing, and would that be enough riders per hour to suffice. Probably a complete Dundas LRT right out to Erin Mills, plus a Queensway LRT from Sherway to Humber Loop and plus a Cloverdale-Sherway-Long Branch LRT also. And convert the busway to LRT to run through along Eglinton into Toronto. And LRT Long Branch to Port Credit. None of that is disadvantaging Mississuaga - it's using money to serve Mississauga better.

- Paul

 

[Deadpool X]

It's another case where one has to ask, just how much LRT could one build for the same money as what you are proposing, and would that be enough riders per hour to suffice.

To get people out of cars, transit has to be faster in suburbs. LRTs are not competitive. LRT will mostly move people from buses to LRT but won't add that many new riders.

 

[T3G]

To get people out of cars, transit has to be faster in suburbs. LRTs are not competitive. LRT will mostly move people from buses to LRT but won't add that many new riders.

In the suburbs, the subway is not competitive either.

Right now, it is an 18 minute drive from Eglinton West station to Vaughan Metropolitan Centre vs. 25 minute ride by subway. According to Google, it takes anywhere from 18-30 minutes to drive this by rush hour.

The only way to make transit competitive in the suburbs is to artificially cap the speed cars can do. Otherwise, it's no contest.

Also, where are people on this proposed line 2 extension going? Are they using it for local needs or to go downtown? Because I promise you, no one in their right mind would take the subway from Square One to Downtown if they have any other options available to them, including GO. It would just be too long, and stops too frequent.

 

[Undead]

For the money spent on that much tunneling, we could upgrade Milton GO to RER standards and build 2-3 local BRTs to connect with it. I think that would be a better use of money.

 

[drum118]

How about a route like this?

Disclaimer - This is rough drawing and I haven't planned for exact routes and turn radii, ridership potential, etc. This is just an idea.

View attachment 451022

It's a 12+ km route with 10 stations (maybe West Mall station can be skipped). I have deliberately chosen a diagonal route so that this route doesn't just cross all major north-south roads but also major east-west roads such as Bloor, Dundas and Queensway. That way it will intercept multiple north-south and east-west bus routes. The areas around the stations alone won't be enough to generate demand.

It may seem like the line is going under the houses all the way but it's only going under houses between Bloor-Cawthra and Dundas-Tomken. At other diagonal routes, it's either going under parks or industrial/commercial areas.

Can subway go under houses? I believe so because they are already doing that with Yonge Line in York Region. Once we see how Metrolinx is able to tunnel under those houses, we'll know if Metrolinx can replicate that here. The route can be planned in a way that ventilation shafts or emergency exits are somewhere on the internal streets instead of someone's backyards. They may still need to buy some people's front yards.

I have added a station at Confederation which some people may feel unnecessary. Burhamthorpe and Confederation is the centre of the density at MCC (not Square One itself). Mavis and Hurontario stations are 2 km apart so having a station in between a dense area is not superfluous. Right now there isn't that much density at Mavis but MCC is expanding west and that station will be become necessary in 20 years when this line could be built.

I am sure there would be many loopholes with this route and I would like to hear everyone's thoughts.

Tell me what stops in Mississauga will see 2000 riders daily on opening day?? The same for 5000 in 10 years??

Have you visited those locations and have seen what the areas look like??

Have you watched how many riders get on/off buses at those location and where they go to/from???

Where is the bus terminal and how do riders get to/from it to/from the subway??

Real lost as to why having a station at Mavis is on your radar.

This is pure Transit Fantasy and there is a thread for it.

The only place a subway could be in Mississauga is on Dundas from Cloverdale 100% once that blight on it is turn into mixed-use midrise 40 years from now, if then. Until then, an BRT is only needed for the next 20 years that will be upgraded to an LRT only as far as Mavis since the rest of Dundas west of it will only support an BRT at best in its own ROW. Only need express buses for the next-10-20 years before moving to a true BRT ROW west of Mavis..

 

[Deadpool X]

Tell me what stops in Mississauga will see 2000 riders daily on opening day?? The same for 5000 in 10 years??

Have you visited those locations and have seen what the areas look like??

Have you watched how many riders get on/off buses at those location and where they go to/from???

Where is the bus terminal and how do riders get to/from it to/from the subway??

Real lost as to why having a station at Mavis is on your radar.

This is pure Transit Fantasy and there is a thread for it.

The only place a subway could be in Mississauga is on Dundas from Cloverdale 100% once that blight on it is turn into mixed-use midrise 40 years from now, if then. Until then, an BRT is only needed for the next 20 years that will be upgraded to an LRT only as far as Mavis since the rest of Dundas west of it will only support an BRT at best in its own ROW. Only need express buses for the next-10-20 years before moving to a true BRT ROW west of Mavis..

Have you read the disclaimer in my post? It's the second sentence where I talk about ridership potential.