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Two hours or even 90 minutes is way too long for time based transfers. I've always been given the impression that time based transfers were intended for quick errands. 30 minutes should be more than reasonable to pick up a bag of milk and grab some coffee.
 
Two hours or even 90 minutes is way too long for time based transfers. I've always been given the impression that time based transfers were intended for quick errands. 30 minutes should be more than reasonable to pick up a bag of milk and grab some coffee.

All the GTA systems do this now with no issues. Like to see people do things within this 30 minute window when it may take then that long just to get to where they want to go. Some systems cut the transfer at the start of the route while the Pesto start once you tap the card. The transfer shows when the transfer expires and you could loose 30 minutes by the time the vehicle hit your stop.

You try to get across Toronto and back on the 2hr transfer and you will find out it can't be done. In the end, very few riders will use 1 fare to do things, otherwise why haven't the GTA systems stop doing it as well other system else where??
 
All the GTA systems do this now with no issues. Like to see people do things within this 30 minute window when it may take then that long just to get to where they want to go. Some systems cut the transfer at the start of the route while the Pesto start once you tap the card. The transfer shows when the transfer expires and you could loose 30 minutes by the time the vehicle hit your stop.

Okay I see why 2 hours makes sense now. I always assumed that the timer would begin once a person alights from the vehicle. It's too bad that Presto doesn't know when passengers alight.
 
Two hours or even 90 minutes is way too long for time based transfers. I've always been given the impression that time based transfers were intended for quick errands. 30 minutes should be more than reasonable to pick up a bag of milk and grab some coffee.

Went to the TTC website, and asked for a Trip Planner option from Humber College, North Campus to the Toronto Zoo. It lists that trip to take between 127 minutes and 140 minutes, leaving at 9:32 AM or 9:36 AM. The 127 minute routes involved would be the 191 Highway 27 Rocket, 2 Bloor-Danforth subway, and the 86A Scarborough. The 140 minute routes involved would be the 96 Wilson, 95 York Mills, and the 86A Scarborough. They're both OVER the 2 hour time limit.
 
Went to the TTC website, and asked for a Trip Planner option from Humber College, North Campus to the Toronto Zoo. It lists that trip to take between 127 minutes and 140 minutes, leaving at 9:32 AM or 9:36 AM. The 127 minute routes involved would be the 191 Highway 27 Rocket, 2 Bloor-Danforth subway, and the 86A Scarborough. The 140 minute routes involved would be the 96 Wilson, 95 York Mills, and the 86A Scarborough. They're both OVER the 2 hour time limit.

That is a rather extraordinary situation. But as I mentioned before, I wrongly assumed that the timer would have started once a passenger alighted from the vehicle.
 
Went to the TTC website, and asked for a Trip Planner option from Humber College, North Campus to the Toronto Zoo. It lists that trip to take between 127 minutes and 140 minutes, leaving at 9:32 AM or 9:36 AM. The 127 minute routes involved would be the 191 Highway 27 Rocket, 2 Bloor-Danforth subway, and the 86A Scarborough. The 140 minute routes involved would be the 96 Wilson, 95 York Mills, and the 86A Scarborough. They're both OVER the 2 hour time limit.

And now you've discovered how an approximate fare-by-distance mechanism may be silently implemented. Extensions are $0.75 per 30 minutes. Allow transfers between agencies (fare split by time on vehicle; premium for rapid transit) and we're basically done.
 
Two hours or even 90 minutes is way too long for time based transfers. I've always been given the impression that time based transfers were intended for quick errands. 30 minutes should be more than reasonable to pick up a bag of milk and grab some coffee.
For many people the first leg of their trip lasts 30-60 minutes so you are saying that if you live at the outer parts of the system you need 2 tickets to travel downtown? While 120 minutes may be a bit long, 30 is certainly far too short.
 
Went to the TTC website, and asked for a Trip Planner option from Humber College, North Campus to the Toronto Zoo. It lists that trip to take between 127 minutes and 140 minutes, leaving at 9:32 AM or 9:36 AM. The 127 minute routes involved would be the 191 Highway 27 Rocket, 2 Bloor-Danforth subway, and the 86A Scarborough. The 140 minute routes involved would be the 96 Wilson, 95 York Mills, and the 86A Scarborough. They're both OVER the 2 hour time limit.
The 2 hours would be the time you would tap on (or board) the final vehicle. In your example, the only tap would be to board the Highway 27 Rocket. So that would work. Even if you had to tap on to the 86A (which you don't), then it's still under the 2-hour mark at that point.

I'm not sure the issue here.
 
The 2 hours would be the time you would tap on (or board) the final vehicle. In your example, the only tap would be to board the Highway 27 Rocket. So that would work. Even if you had to tap on to the 86A (which you don't), then it's still under the 2-hour mark at that point.

I'm not sure the issue here.

If on the last leg, 86A, and the bus gets short-turned, one could get dinged. Unlikely, but in theory they could.
 
If on the last leg, 86A, and the bus gets short-turned, one could get dinged. Unlikely, but in theory they could.
I've never seen a TTC driver refuse to give out transfers when a bus is short-turned en-route. Though that may be an issue in a post-Presto world.
 
I'm just going to copy and paste the comments I made about this on Munro's blog:

Ben Smith said:
Let a while tell you a story…

About 10 years ago when in high school, I took a few buses to my part time job. I took a Yonge St. bus south to 16th Ave, a bus across 16th to Woodbine, and down Woodbine about a kilometer. Note that this is also before York Region implemented a 2 hour transfer, and had similar rules to the TTC.

The bus on Woodbine came every half hour or so at the time, and was contracted to the TTC. For a while it came on time as scheduled, but then one rainy day it was running late. It only goes up one side road North (Major Mackenzie) before returning south, I decided to ride it around the loop. After all, you can do that with the subway.

Well this driver was threatening to throw me out of the bus if I didn’t pay an extra fare for riding through the loop. Nevermind the fact that it was raining. Nevermind the fact that I was now 3km away from my stop. Nevermind the fact that if I had come across on Major Mackenzie my transfer would have been valid. He wasn’t going to leave until I paid an extra fare. He said it was my responsibility to check the website everyday, not the TTC’s to inform me of schedule changes (ie: notices at bus stops or in buses).

So I paid and called the TTC the next day, since at the time their call centre closed at 5PM. The guy said that since it happened in York Region, I had to call York Region Transit. YRT told me to call the TTC. Despite the fact that there was only one bus which operated north of Steeles at a time on that route, because I didn’t have the bus number they claimed there was nothing they could do. After playing a bit of telephone tag, I settled for the “explanation” that there were notices inside the bus (which was clearly false since the TTC doesn’t do this).

In retrospect, I probably should have contacted my local councillor if not the Ministry of Transportation. Maybe the Toronto Sun, because they will print anything.

On topic, if the TTC’s creative accountants claim they will loose $20 million, it is $20 million ill-gotten money. While my sad tale is an outlier, the fact is that the TTC’s transfer policy is not only not customer friendly, it is not designed to human nature! People don’t buy a Metropass because they commute between three separate destinations every single day or to “steal” free rides, they buy one because it is the most economically and convenient way to meet their travel needs. People who don’t have a Metropass who need to make multiple trips will likely drive or find alternative means, so right now the TTC is getting $0 from these people. Likewise someone who generally takes transit 40 trips per month will resent having to do a stop over, and pushes such person away from transit altogether.

But assuming that the TTC will lose an exceptional amount of money, then I would accept a fare increase to create a more logical fare structure (Metropass = +-40 tokens). I also think the city should increase what it gives to the TTC as well, since such a setup could see an increase in business tax revenue since passengers can stop over at their establishments now without getting penalized for it.

Steve: And to cap that all off, it is TTC policy that you can ride around loops for one fare. However, operators who take layovers along the way can get a bit annoying about this because they want a private break. Suck it up guys — it’s called “customer service”.

Ben Smith said:
Another benefit I should mention is with the urban design goals and the need to travel less, as Keesmat mentioned last night at Walker’s presentation. Someone needs to get to a store say 3km away to pick something up. It is too far to walk for most, but if they take transit they will be dinged two fares. Considering the short distance, this would be an ideal transit ride, especially considering how close the stops are on most routes. But they only see the value in transit for long trips, despite the grind of having the bus stop every couple hundred meters. Instead they end up driving, causing more congestion. They may even decide that since they are driving. they can go further out and go to a store which offers the product for less – since the cost of gas would be less than two fares and the car's fixed costs are there regardless if it is driven or not.

Ben Smith said:
David said:
And on the subject of poor TTC customer service, just try taking the streetcar to Long Branch and using your transfer to get on the subway at Union. Even though the website has an entire page explaining how to do exactly this. Tell me when you do it, and I’ll come watch.

Be sure to catch the whole thing with your cell phone camera. Seems being humiliated in the mainstream media is the only way to get policy changed at the TTC.

Anyways, perhaps it is mentioned in the report, but has the TTC looked up how moving to a timed transfer affected ridership and revenue in other systems? More and more systems, big and small, are trending towards this structure, so there should be numerous case studies to see how it turned out.

I’m willing to bet that even for the largest systems, they did not see a $20 million drop in revenue.

Steve: There is no reference in the report to experiences elsewhere. To be fair, the changes in other cities in N. America were not starting from the same fare structure as the TTC, nor did they move to a timed transfer with the same rules as the TTC proposes. On top of these issues, the actual quality of service offered (the attractiveness of off peak travel, for example) would also affect the outcome.

That last comment is most telling. Their failure to look at other case studies it exposes a weak point in their creative accounting. Being a fourth year student at York, I wonder what kind of grade I would get if I handed in a term paper without a literature review...
 
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At the January 28, 2014 TTC meeting, one of items on the agenda is on 79 Scarlett Road Route – New Off-Peak Service on St. Clair Avenue West. You can download the PDF from this link.

The recommendation is:
New service on the 79B SCARLETT RD route via St. Clair Avenue West during the midday and early evening, from Monday to Friday, and during the daytime on Saturdays and Sundays and holidays will result in better service, overall, for customers, and is recommended for operation, for a trial period, starting March 30, 2014.

79B Scarlett Rd.jpg


St. Clair Avenue West, west of Keele Street, is in Ward 11, Councillor Frances Nunziata's ward. She was also a supporter of Mayor Rob Ford.

St. Clair Avenue West, in Ward 11, will be serviced by four TTC routes: 512 St. Clair, 71 Runnymede, 79B Scarlett Road, and 312 St. Clair. 79B Scarlett Road currently operates during the rush hours only. Starting March 30, 2014, 79B Scarlett Road will get extended service during the midday and early evening, from Monday to Friday, and during the daytime on Saturdays and Sundays and holidays. 71 Runnymede operates at all times, seven days a week. 512 St. Clair operates at all times, seven days a week. 312 St. Clair operates from the St. Clair Station on the Yonge-University-Spadina Subway and Jane Station on the Bloor-Danforth Subway, during the overnight period. Unfortunately, for such a short section of roadway, why does it continue to have such chopped up service, with so many transfers between routes.

Personally, I would rather see plans for an extension of the 512 St. Clair streetcar to Scarlett Road & Dundas Street West. Didn't expect to see such plans or suggestions during the past three years, since the Councillor would rather be on the Ford good list. Wonder if we will see anything in the coming election campaign?
 

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I don't think time-based transfers would actually hurt TTC cost recovery. More people would use TTC for short trips, and short trips don't take up as much space on the system as long trips... More riders without requiring extra capacity. In the end, it wouldn't be much if any difference.
 
I don't think time-based transfers would actually hurt TTC cost recovery. More people would use TTC for short trips, and short trips don't take up as much space on the system as long trips... More riders without requiring extra capacity. In the end, it wouldn't be much if any difference.

I agree.

Let's not forget that the TTC might get more riders because of this. For example, if there is restaurant that I want to go 2km away, I might just walk there because the $6 return fare is just too high to be justified. If I could travel both way for $3, I probably would take the subway/streetcar instead of walking. The same happen to many people in grocery shopping.

There have been quite a few times when my friends and I decided against eating at Korean town because of transit cost. If it cost half, we could have gone.

To provide a time based 2 hour transfer makes perfect sense, and honestly, TTC should give short trip riders a break.
 
I took a brief look at the report, and I am disappointed (but not suprised) of the limited reference to St. Clair. After all, isn't that what a "pilot project" for in the first place?! It just mentions that over the 8-9 years it has been running, they estimate losses of $400-$500 thousand. It doesn't mention anything about increases in ridership, improved customer service and satisfaction, employee moral improvements, etc. This "pilot project" was nothing more than to quiet NIMBYs upset about the construction.
 

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