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TTC reopens contract after derailing Bombardier's bid

JEFF GRAY

From Friday's Globe and Mail

July 18, 2008 at 3:31 AM EDT

The TTC's massive plans - three years in the making - to replace its aging streetcar fleet with new low-floor vehicles hit a major snag yesterday, as the transit agency said the proposed vehicle from Montreal-based Bombardier would literally derail if rolled out onto the city's tracks.

Despite assurances from Bombardier over the past year that its Flexity design could handle Toronto's tight curves and steep hills, Toronto Transit Commission officials announced yesterday that the streetcar offered by the firm - and expected to be at least partly assembled at its Thunder Bay plant - simply would not run on the city's system.

"Effectively, the car that they bid would have derailed on Toronto streets, and they should have known this," Adam Giambrone, the city councillor who chairs the TTC, said yesterday.

The TTC announced yesterday that it is scrapping both of the proposals it has received for the $1.25-billion contract, its biggest ever.

The TTC said it would begin negotiations over the next four weeks with major streetcar manufacturers, including Bombardier, to find a design that will work.

While the failure of the bid by Bombardier, the world's largest light-rail manufacturer, was a surprise, the rejection of the bid from tiny British-based TRAM Power Ltd., tossed out for not being "commercially compliant," was not.

Mr. Giambrone said the setback would only mean a 11/2-month delay. He said the first cars of the 204 on order to replace the existing 30-year-old fleet should still arrive on schedule, with test cars to be delivered in 2010, and a new fleet rolling out in 2011-2012.

TTC and external engineers are convinced that a 21st-century, 100-per-cent low-floor streetcar can be modified to run on Toronto's 19th-century tracks, which have the tightest turns and some of the steepest hills of any light-rail system in the world, he said.

Right-leaning Councillor Karen Stintz (Ward 16, Eglinton-Lawrence), a frequent critic of the TTC, said city council needs to investigate what went wrong: "It certainly suggests there has been a problem with the process. And it is cause for concern."

Mr. Giambrone said Bombardier knowingly submitted a bid that did not meet several of the TTC's technical requirements, writing "fail" right on the document indicating that the firm's testing showed its vehicle could not push a disabled streetcar up a hill near Union Station and could not handle the city's unusually tight 11-metre-radius curves.

David Slack, a spokesman for Bombardier, said he was not aware of the specifics of the TTC's problems with Bombardier's bid.

He said the company would study the transit agency's response and was still interested in the contract: "We are surprised by the outcome, no question about that."

TTC chief general manager Gary Webster said there was nothing wrong with the TTC's specifications, and that there were no complaints before the bids were submitted. He said he believed Bombardier's design could actually work in Toronto, but with significant modifications.

The streetcar purchase - which has not yet received necessary funding from provincial and federal governments - has been controversial from the beginning, as the TTC insisted on holding a competitive bidding process after it was criticized for entering into a "sole source" deal with Bombardier for $674-million worth of subway cars in 2006 to preserve unionized jobs at Bombardier's Thunder Bay plant.

For the streetcar deal, which could eventually see the TTC order another 364 light-rail vehicles for its 120-kilometre Transit City expansion plans, the TTC instead hired a consultant and set a threshold for 25-per-cent Canadian content, a number criticized as too low by Bombardier and too high by at least one German-based major potential bidder, Siemens.

Earlier this month, the TTC revealed that Siemens - which recently announced layoffs - had declined to bid.

Siemens, which had launched a major ad campaign in Toronto, and even shipped over a life-size mockup streetcar from Europe, had pledged that its design could handle Toronto's tracks. It did not publicly say why it decided against a bid, but the firm told the TTC this week that Siemens was undergoing a worldwide corporate "refocusing" and could not commit to a large streetcar order at this time, Mr. Webster said.

A requirement that all bids be 100-per-cent low-floor - disqualifying partial low-floor models - also upset some potential bidders.

In addition to Bombardier and Siemens, Mr. Giambrone said the TTC would now approach other companies that had previously expressed interest in the contract, including French-based Alstom.
 
Hard to say whether the laughing should outwhease the cyring. After the PowerTram posting, I wonder if we shouldn't just let them knock themselves out. At least they apparantly love streetcars, their own reputation, and a challenge. What a disappointment that Bombastier couldn't bother to meet the requirements.
 
Crotrams are second tier, untrustworthy trams that only secondary Eastern European cities use.

Toronto deserves far better.. Nothing less than the Siemens, Bombardier can offer.

I've ridden on the Crotram many times and nothing about it seemed second rate or untrustworthy to me.
 
Riding the streetcar yesterday, I realized one of the reasons I enjoy it so much (other than riding high), is that I can open the windows and take in the summer breeze and connect with the outsite... I hope they rework the windows to make them move inviting and interactive
 
Maybe this is a sign from god to remove/seriously rework the legacy tracks. I realize this is intensely unpopular on this forum, but I don't think we have looked at other options for the downtown core. By removing some, or all, of the legacy system we can focus on areas where LRT has real potential (areas with wider stop spacing and less frequent intersections).

Barring something drastic, the downtown system will always be limited by traffic, frequent intersection and stops (isn't stop spacing @ one point on the 501 90-80m?). It is no secret that LRTs enjoy the bulk of their efficiencies at wider stop spacing w/signal priority, none of which is realistic in the core. The current speed for the Spadina car is roughly 13 km/h, which isn't really faster than a bus. I can't imagine the Queen or King cars being faster.

If the goal is local service, I don't see how trolley buses are inadequate. How much is Vancouver paying for it's New Flyers? 700-800k? That works out to like 1500 buses! That would add far more capacity to the system than the 230 trams. Ideally, there would be an bona fide E/W rapid transit corridor in the core.

For nostalgia purposes, which I think are legitimate to an extent, we could maintain a downtown "loop", say, along queen-bathurst-college-parliament, or something to that effect.
 
I've ridden on the Crotram many times and nothing about it seemed second rate or untrustworthy to me.

Only Zagreb runs the Crotram.. I would personally wait until this is a proven technology by numerous cities, and not just used in Croatia's capital.
 
buses cannot replace high volume s/c service: even in mixed traffic

Maybe this is a sign from god to remove/seriously rework the legacy tracks.
If the goal is local service, I don't see how trolley buses are inadequate.

Rework maybe -- remove, no. Despite the apparent inefficiency of the legacy streetcar network, it's about capacity and this will have to be explained over and over. Perhaps someone can create a moving visual image of how you would get enough buses onto the street and into stops in order to possibly replicate our higher-volume s/c lines.

Just imagine what would happen on King or Queen when two or more buses start to bunch and attempt to service a bus stop. The second would block the through lane. Keep imagining the possible scenarios.

Unless you are able to remove the mixed traffic or on-street parking obstacles, buses (even articulated trolley coaches) would probably have to exceed the number of existing LRVs. Of course, if you could remove the mixed traffic or on-street parking obstacles -- then streetcars make even more sense.

A DRL, as I think has been established here (?), is not about replacing s/c lines. In fact it might also generate additional surface ridership -- although that needs to be modelled.

Either way, we'll probably see buses replace some lesser used s/c services as the number of operable A/CLRVs diminishes. This will provide some fuel for the debate.
 
Here's basically the same article from The Star: http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/462611


This failure to meet rfp sounds stupidly suspicious. How could they not know it couldn't meet the requirements or be engineered to meet the requirements. I guarantee they submitted a failing bid so they could rebid and ask for more money to meet the requirements, or TTC nitpicked in order to make it seem like a fair contract process.
 
^... There seems to be more politics than meets the eye. TTC is surprised Bombardier did not make the necessary modifications and Bombardier is surprised there was need. I hope this will lead to a better deal for the city and a better design... with the windows I like :)
 
For nostalgia purposes, which I think are legitimate to an extent, we could maintain a downtown "loop", say, along queen-bathurst-college-parliament, or something to that effect.
A lot of cities envy the fact that *we* had the foresight not to abandon streetcars when it was trendy. Many of them have plans to *rebuild*, from scratch, the streetcars they so foolishly lost 60 years ago.
 
The problem seems to be that Bombardier had apparently chosen to use European standards on wheel size, track condition and other specifications instead of the TTC's. When the TTC used the TTC specs for the wheels it would fail, but when the European standards are used it would pass. The TTC and Bombardier are to meet in a grudge match to wrestle over this problem. I hope there is no hair pulling.
 
A lot of cities envy the fact that *we* had the foresight not to abandon streetcars when it was trendy. Many of them have plans to *rebuild*, from scratch, the streetcars they so foolishly lost 60 years ago.

I'm not so sure about this. Portland built a one-way circle route that serves as an urban circulator, and Seattle did the same thing just this past year to serve the Lake Union neighbourhood, but there are no plans anywhere to resurrect legacy networks like the one you find in Toronto. Incidentally, the Portland line cost $58 million and carries a paltry 9,000 weekday riders - and they call that a success!
 

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