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So why is it that San Francisco and Melbourne, two other New World cities that kept their legacy streetcars and with orthogonal street grids, have no problem finding an appropriate streetcar? Keep in mind that San Fran is famous for steep hills, so don't tell me about how Toronto's hills are steep.

Sometimes TTC incompetence is absolutely mind-boggling.

I'm not so sure about this. Portland built a one-way circle route that serves as an urban circulator, and Seattle did the same thing just this past year to serve the Lake Union neighbourhood, but there are no plans anywhere to resurrect legacy networks like the one you find in Toronto. Incidentally, the Portland line cost $58 million and carries a paltry 9,000 weekday riders - and they call that a success!
Perhaps, but dozens of cities in North America and Europe have or have plans to build street-level rails in the downtown core.

And all of them still envy the fact that we have ours.
 
An interesting development:


Bombardier baffled by derailed streetcar contract
JOHN PARTRIDGE and MATTHEW CAMPBELL AND JEFF GRAY
Globe and Mail Update
July 18, 2008 at 3:28 PM EDT

Bombardier Transportation says it is baffled by the Toronto Transit Commission's dismissal as “non-compliant” of its bid for a $1.25-billion contract to replace the city's aging streetcar fleet.

As a result, it is urgently seeking a meeting with the TTC to get a better understanding of what went wrong.

“Based on the information we've got, and it's limited at the moment. . .bottom line is we don't understand at this point or accept the non-compliance determination,” Bombardier spokesman David Slack said Friday. “We still believe the bid submitted was competitive and responsive to the intent of the specification and [that] it's a viable proposal for the needs of the region.”

Mr. Slack also angrily dismissed comments made Thursday by TTC chairman Adam Giambrone that Bombardier had deliberately submitted a bid that did not meet some of the transit operator's technical requirements.

“We take some exception to the comments that were in the media this morning that BT knowingly submitted a non-compliant bid,” he said in a telephone interview. “These suggestions are unwarranted and do nothing to further constructive interaction between the parties on this.”

The TTC announced Thursday that it has rejected Bombardier's proposal as technically non-compliant, and the only other submission it received, from tiny British-based TRAM Power Ltd., as commercially non-compliant.

It said that, instead, it will begin negotiations with various manufacturers, including Bombardier, over the next four weeks to find a design that will work.

Mr. Slack said Bombardier, the world's largest maker of light rail vehicles and a unit of Montreal-based aerospace and transportation giant Bombardier Inc., was planning to write to the TTC Friday seeking a face to face meeting as soon as possible.

“Our management today is going to ask the TTC for an immediate meeting to discuss the issue in more depth so we can get a better understanding of where they are coming from,” he said in a telephone interview.

Until the company learns the specific details of how its proposed vehicles are non-compliant “or how they believe they are not compliant,” Mr. Slack added, “we have no recourse. We need to talk with them directly to understand what the issue is, and until we get that, we're at a disadvantage.”

Mr. Giambrone, who also is a Toronto city councillor, told reporters Thursday that Bombardier's proposed “Flexity” streetcar would simply would not run on the city's system, with its hilly streets and tight curves.

"Effectively, the car that they bid would have derailed on Toronto streets, and they should have known this," he said.

Mr. Giambrone said Bombardier knowingly submitted a bid that did not meet several of the TTC's technical requirements, writing "fail" right on the document indicating that the firm's testing showed its vehicle could not push a disabled streetcar up a hill near Union Station and could not handle the city's unusually tight 11-metre-radius curves.

However, Mr. Slack refused to comment on the Flexity vehicles' ability to meet the TTC's technical requirements. “We're not going to debate the technical aspects in the media,” he said.

He also dismissed out of hand the notion that Bombardier may have been overconfident of winning the contract and careless in preparing its bid.

“That's pretty ridiculous given that right up until the bid submission [deadline] we assumed it was going to be multiple bidders [including] a couple of our big competitors,” Mr. Slack said. “The bottom line is that we are the world's No. 1 provider of light rail vehicles [and] our success wouldn't be what it is today if we went into bids with a sloppy approach.”

Siemens AG, the German conglomerate widely expected to compete with Bombardier for the project, surprised many by failing to submit a bid before the July 3 deadline.

Dirk Miller, a spokesman for the company, said Friday that Siemens is interest in the new process the TTC is planning to launch to choose a manufacturer. "We have to re-assess and then our final decision may be a different one," he said.

Mr. Miller also said that the company's decision to pull out of the TTC's original request for proposals came as Siemens was about to announce a restructuring. “The decision was not simply based on technical challenges,” Mr. Miller said. “We are going through an adjustment…and have to improve cost performance in some areas. It's always difficult to take a risk in such an environment."

The streetcar purchase - which has not yet received necessary funding from provincial and federal governments - has been controversial from the outset, as the TTC insisted on holding a competitive bidding process after it was criticized for entering into a "sole source" deal with Bombardier for $674-million worth of subway cars in 2006 to preserve unionized jobs at Bombardier's Thunder Bay plant.

Bob Chernicki, an assistant to the president of the Canadian Auto Workers union, which represents workers at that plant called the TTC's rejection of Bombardier's bid “shocking.”

He warned that it threatens the plant's future. “Nothing else is coming into that plant," he said, adding that without the streetcar contract there is “no question” but that there will be layoffs there after 2010.

More to come.

http://www.reportonbusiness.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080718.wbomber0718/BNStory/Business/home
 
Bob Chernicki, an assistant to the president of the Canadian Auto Workers union, which represents workers at that plant called the TTC's rejection of Bombardier's bid “shocking.â€

He warned that it threatens the plant's future. “Nothing else is coming into that plant," he said, adding that without the streetcar contract there is “no question†but that there will be layoffs there after 2010.

The TTC should accept non-compliant bids and streetcars that would derail because union workers need the jobs? How dare the TTC put things like "technical specifications" and "real world situations" before union jobs.
 
We don't have the whole story yet. So I suggest we wait before making comments about Bombardier wanting to put people's lives in danger or Bombardier specifically making its proposal "non-compliant" on purpose.
 
We don't have the whole story yet. So I suggest we wait before making comments about Bombardier wanting to put people's lives in danger or Bombardier specifically making its proposal "non-compliant" on purpose.

I am in agreeance that we should just wait before blaming people and pointing the finger. Who knows what has really taken place here and what the motives are... negotiating tactics? Not sure, but lets just wait and see what happens.
 
When it comes to the tendering process, the TTC's technical requirements tend to be overly conservative, exhaustive, and non negotiable, thus driving up bid prices considerably. Without knowing any particulars about this project, I would bet that Bombardier's streetcars are almost certainly compatible with Toronto's track network, but they fail on a minor and irrelevant technicality, and are thus disqualified.

If it was in fact the Union Station portal that disqualified Bomardier's streetcars, then the TTC will insist upon a solution that raises the cost of ALL streetcars by 25% in order to address a situation that occurs once in a blue moon. A better solution would be for the TTC to keep one or two work cars on hand that can be deployed in an emergency situation to push disabled streetcars up that hill, thereby lowering the cost of the new fleet by tens of millions of dollars.
 
^^^^ plus they are planning on building a second portal for the waterfront east lines that is not going to be as steep, therefor the problem may already be a non-issue
 
A better solution would be for the TTC to keep one or two work cars on hand that can be deployed in an emergency situation to push disabled streetcars up that hill, thereby lowering the cost of the new fleet by tens of millions of dollars.

How would you get those work cars to the scene without backing every other streetcar on the line out past Spadina?
 
I think it's madness that we're putting out a tender for streetcars that only one firm can possible comply with. If no other firm can make streetcars that can turn sharply then change the system. Reroute those lines that can't take the usual streetcars made today, or switch them over to buses.

I don't care where the streetcars are made, Upper Volta would be fine, but we must not allow Bombardier to be the only bidder.
 
If it was in fact the Union Station portal that disqualified Bomardier's streetcars, then the TTC will insist upon a solution that raises the cost of ALL streetcars by 25% in order to address a situation that occurs once in a blue moon. A better solution would be for the TTC to keep one or two work cars on hand that can be deployed in an emergency situation to push disabled streetcars up that hill, thereby lowering the cost of the new fleet by tens of millions of dollars.

Are the work cars any stronger than regular cars? Aren't many of them gutted PCCs?
 
Are the work cars any stronger than regular cars? Aren't many of them gutted PCCs?

How would you get those work cars to the scene without backing every other streetcar on the line out past Spadina?

I don't have an answer for either of these questions. The point is that the TTC should be considering options other than effectively sole sourcing the contract for what may be the most expensive streetcars in the world. If it means regrading the Union Station ramp or modifying a few loops, just get on with it.

Having worked with (but thankfully never as an employee of) the TTC for about 5 years now, I have found that the TTC operates under the philosophy that it is a rare privilege to be lucky enough to actually win a contract with them. As a result, the TTC has the belief that the private sector is more than willing to bend over backwards to meet their relentless demands. It's no shock to me that regardless of how lucrative the streetcar contract may be, only two manufacturers were actually willing to submit a bid. That says a lot!
 
When the Toronto Transportation Commission took over the street railway systems in Toronto in 1920-1921, they had to rebuild the trackway to accommodate the wider and larger Peter Witt streetcars at the time.
Wouldn't it be cheaper to first see if it is possible or not to rebuild the the trackway at the curves to accommodate any of the new streetcars or LRV's. Has a survey been done to see if the tracks can be adjusted?
 
When the Toronto Transportation Commission took over the street railway systems in Toronto in 1920-1921, they had to rebuild the trackway to accommodate the wider and larger Peter Witt streetcars at the time.
Wouldn't it be cheaper to first see if it is possible or not to rebuild the the trackway at the curves to accommodate any of the new streetcars or LRV's. Has a survey been done to see if the tracks can be adjusted?

I think the problem is going to be at intersections, where streetcars use most of the roadway to make the turn. That's going to be a very expensive proposal, so I can see why the TTC would want to get a car that already works. But, this is something that can be looked at as a long term investment.
 

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