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Does anybody actually like the new streetcars? I think they look very cool on the outside but find them quite cramped on the inside.

I like the much more than the old ones. They can be cramped in the 2-2 seat areas, but since it's low-floor what can you do. I like the open areas near the door.

Combined with POP the Spadina line is much more effective at large crowds moving in & out of the vehicles now.
 
Does anybody actually like the new streetcars? I think they look very cool on the outside but find them quite cramped on the inside.

My only complaint is the comfort of the seats. In particular, the seats over the wheels. Some of those seats arch too far back about halfway up the rear of the seat, making it very uncomfortable to sit in. I hate it.
 
We would have been seen as being remarkably stupid? Having several models to maintain would probably mean that all streetcar mechanics (and operators?) could not fix (drive) all the cars and the TTC would need to maintain a far larger inventory of spare parts.

I wonder how they manage that in cities that do run rolling stock from two or more different manufacturers, such as Berlin (ADtranz, Bombardier) or Melbourne (Alstom, Siemens, Bombardier) or Amsterdam (Brugeoise/Bombardier and Siemens) ...
 
We would have been seen as being remarkably stupid? Having several models to maintain would probably mean that all streetcar mechanics (and operators?) could not fix (drive) all the cars and the TTC would need to maintain a far larger inventory of spare parts.
It's amazing how VIA manages with P42s AND F40s. And all those railcar types!!
 
It's amazing how VIA manages with P42s AND F40s. And all those railcar types!!
Yes, but it is really not ideal to buy a variety of types of equipment at the same time from different suppliers. Firstly you get no 'volume discount', secondly you have to stock multiple spares from different manufacturers and train staff to repair & operate (slightly?) different vehicles. The TTC weere replacing all the streetcars (or thought they were).
 
^ at least they are a corporately honest company...I mean right at the start (10 seconds in) they do flash the warning "expect delays"......that is a very interesting way to start a sales pitch
 
The VIA F40 and P42 comparison is really not that helpful - those were much smaller orders under circumstances where there really was only one model available at the time.

The Flexity contract was for 204 units at a total cost of just under $1B. Many of the other Flexity orders out there have been for much smaller unit numbers. One would suspect that the per-unit cost is about as low as Bombardier could get it through economy of scale.

The more meaningful question would be, could the TTC have placed two orders for roughly 102 cars each, and what would that have cost. Note that even at 204 cars, the next highest bidder was 50% more - about $1.5 B. When you consider that both builders were adapting their designs to a unique TTC spec, the Bombardier bid for 102 cars would have been higher than 50% of $1B - to recoup its engineering investment, and due to lesser economy of scale - and the second bidder would likely have bid more than 50% of $1.5 B. So the difference would have likely been upwards of $250 million.

There would have been some added operating cost as the cost of spare parts inventory, test equipment, tools and machinery, training, etc would have increased. I don't see this as being in the hundred-million range, so I would not dwell on it.

We haven't spent that much money keeping CLRV/ALRV's in service....yet.

(I pulled those numbers from http://www.ttc.ca/About_the_TTC/Com..._Review_of_Options_to_Exclude_Bombardier_.pdf)

- Paul
 
builders were adapting their designs to a unique TTC spec
Can someone explain to me why streetcar design isn't essentially standardized? I can understand issues of gauge, but other than that, why are these vehicles not pretty much "off the shelf"?
 
Can someone explain to me why streetcar design isn't essentially standardized? I can understand issues of gauge, but other than that, why are these vehicles not pretty much "off the shelf"?

There is a turn radius limitation for some cars (however many run through old European cities so I question the real limitation here).

TTC requires that it can go up a fairly steep gradient and push the train in front of it

Many are not 100% low floor which was a requirement that Toronto set (I have been on ones that are not 100% low floor and it does limit the standing capacity (but reduces the cost significantly)

Finally the TTC creates a bunch of specific requirements that basically shuts out all other contenders other than Bombardier and jacks up the price. If they asked for an off the shelf model and then compared the prices and the performance I'm sure they would get better deals.

The other LRT manufacturers know that the deal is stacked up against them so they don't want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars preparing a legit proposal to the TTC knowing that they will lose the bid.
 
There is a turn radius limitation for some cars (however many run through old European cities so I question the real limitation here).

TTC requires that it can go up a fairly steep gradient and push the train in front of it

Boston teaches other transit agencies numerous lessons by learning them the really hard way themselves.

One of those lessons is to create strict vehicle specifications to run on your existing infrastructure. Spending 50% extra on vehicles is still the far cheaper option.
 

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