[Steve X]

And Toronto doesn't have capacity problems? We have a huge subset of the population that has simply given up on our system for the sole reason of our crowding. It's downright dangerous. I'm also not sure how a 2-car Canada Line would be the 'only part of Vancouver's system that counts as a metro', but its 4-6 car trains don't. Just because Canada Line is 50cm wider shouldn't make a difference. The 2.5m trains share the same width as Montreal's system.

Also, I can't really see how UPX is a shining example in how it compares with Canada Line. Ignoring the general failure of UPX's premium fare premise: one line is 3.5m frequency (w/ 7min frequency to YVR) and has a capacity of 335; the other line is 15min frequency to YYZ and a capacity of 173. UPX's trains aren't even designed for standees and the infrastructure was set out to be a high-class low-use service. In other words UPX has lower capacity and lower frequency, and with its price reduction will likely have a much graver future than Canada Line ever will. No question CL should've been built with longer trains, but IMO it's much more forward-thinking and straphanger-friendly.

Toronto simply need a new line. Toronto didn't run into the capacity problem within a few years of the system's opening. The system is planned well with 6 car train lengths and lasted well into the 80s before the whole issue popped up. The forecast was sufficient as ML only plans for 30 years right now too. Vancouver simply underestimated and wasted all the money and time for some 2 car trains with very limited expansion length. Toronto didn't suffer from a design issue but political disagreement and funds.

Toronto constantly overbuilds the system. Sheppard and the TYSSE is overbuilt for many years to come costing a lot more than Vancouver. Vancouver does the exact oppose by building just enough and underestimates ridership. In long terms, Toronto will be better off than Vancouver. They aren't surface LRT platforms e.g. Calgary which can easily expand without huge issues.

In engineering terms, the skytrain system is actual a light metro and not heavy rail unlike Toronto and Montreal. The SRT being the same as skytrains is not consider heavy rail metro either. It's somewhere in between light and heavy rail. The technology is not designed for capacity like Toronto or Montreal. Narrower trains have nothing to do with this. The Canada line is using heavy rail technology but they just crippled the line by short trains. We should consider the Eglinton LRT as part of the length too. In transit terms, the entire Vancouver metro system is entirely made up of medium capacity trains. Montreal and Toronto both have subway lines that can carry more people than Vancouver. Anyways, technical term is stupid. We should consider all rail public transit with frequent service as RT. Hence Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver and soon Ottawa are all comparable with Toronto and Montreal's system length.

I never compared the UPX to the Canada line. It serves a different purpose but it exists as public transportation for Toronto serving all times except overnight. Vancouver doesn't have any other rail system besides the Sky train. The West coast express is just a peak direction only service. Like the Milton and Richmond Hill GO lines.

 

[Steve X]

What expansions does Vancouver have for the upcoming year. Off the top of my head, Toronto has RER, Spadina Extension, Crosstown, Crosstown West, Crosstown East, Finch West LRT, Relief Line and I suppose the Yonge North Extension and the northern and western extensions of the Relief Line. The latter three will be shovel ready in the upcoming years, although we've yet to see any other political commitment of any kind to them, beyond the $200 Million in funding to get them construction-ready.

A Broadway line but it's pretty much in the same boat as the Yonge line hoping for funds.
http://www.translink.ca/en/Plans-an...sit-Projects/Broadway-SkyTrain-Extension.aspx

They won't see another expansion til the mid-2020s. Toronto will catch up by 2021.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Toronto simply need a new line. Toronto didn't run into the capacity problem within a few years of the system's opening. The system is planned well with 6 car train lengths and lasted well into the 80s before the whole issue popped up. The forecast was sufficient as ML only plans for 30 years right now too. Vancouver simply underestimated and wasted all the money and time for some 2 car trains with very limited expansion length. Toronto didn't suffer from a design issue but political disagreement and funds.

Is there a Vancouver equivalent of the Relief Line?

For the time being I'll say Vancouver has the better system for a city of their size (it does seem to be working better than the TTC subways), but in the upcoming years, assuming Vancouver continues to grow, I foresee a significant capacity crisis, similar to what Toronto is experiencing. What the private sector designers did with the Canada Line is shameful.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

A Broadway line but it's pretty much in the same boat as the Yonge line hoping for funds.
http://www.translink.ca/en/Plans-an...sit-Projects/Broadway-SkyTrain-Extension.aspx

They won't see another expansion til the mid-2020s. Toronto will catch up by 2021.

Surprised to hear the Broadway extension isn't proposed to even reach UBC. Doesn't Broadway all the way west to UBC generate quite a bit of traffic (aka the most used surface route in the country)

 

[44 North]

Toronto simply need a new line. Toronto didn't run into the capacity problem within a few years of the system's opening. The system is planned well with 6 car train lengths and lasted well into the 80s before the whole issue popped up. The forecast was sufficient as ML only plans for 30 years right now too. Vancouver simply underestimated and wasted all the money and time for some 2 car trains with very limited expansion length. Toronto didn't suffer from a design issue but political disagreement and funds.

Toronto constantly overbuilds the system. Sheppard and the TYSSE is overbuilt for many years to come costing a lot more than Vancouver. Vancouver does the exact oppose by building just enough and underestimates ridership. In long terms, Toronto will be better off than Vancouver. They aren't surface LRT platforms e.g. Calgary which can easily expand without huge issues.

In engineering terms, the skytrain system is actual a light metro and not heavy rail unlike Toronto and Montreal. The SRT being the same as skytrains is not consider heavy rail metro either. It's somewhere in between light and heavy rail. The technology is not designed for capacity like Toronto or Montreal. Narrower trains have nothing to do with this. The Canada line is using heavy rail technology but they just crippled the line by short trains. We should consider the Eglinton LRT as part of the length too. In transit terms, the entire Vancouver metro system is entirely made up of medium capacity trains. Montreal and Toronto both have subway lines that can carry more people than Vancouver. Anyways, technical term is stupid. We should consider all rail public transit with frequent service as RT. Hence Calgary, Edmonton, Vancouver and soon Ottawa are all comparable with Toronto and Montreal's system length.

I never compared the UPX to the Canada line. It serves a different purpose but it exists as public transportation for Toronto serving all times except overnight. Vancouver doesn't have any other rail system besides the Sky train. The West coast express is just a peak direction only service. Like the Milton and Richmond Hill GO lines.

I agree with most/all of this. And when it comes to light metro I still consider it very much subway/metro...just a loosely defined subset. If Sheppard weren't expandable to 150m and was simply a maxed out 100m 4-car system it is today, perhaps one could also consider it 'light'. But it'd still very much be a part of our subway system. And with Line 3 yeah it's small, but it's also a part of the subway/metro too. Where I do draw the line however, as does most or all technical classification, is with systems run unprotected from road or other rail. *But in no way should this be considered a knock against how great those systems/lines are.

As well, with Vancouver I basically equate their smaller-sized system as not so much small, rather scaled to their city and urban area. They're not TO, or NYC, nor ever will be. Something above street-running LRT but below 150m subways is reasonable.

Also I think in many instances people overestimate the volumes that can be carried by street-running LRT. 15k peak direction is the max I often see, but I have a very hard time believing that being doable. Ditto for the high avg speeds. Again, not a knock against these great lines. But when you look at the everyday capacity of the vehicles, or the growing traffic, or the addition of new signals/intersections that comes with development, or that we can't exactly run ATO for a streetcar/tram/LRV... the 15k number might be a bit high. Compare that with a fully grade-separated line using ATO and with open gangways. If it's run as 3-car T1s you can rest assured that the 15k will be easily carried at all times.

 

[Steve X]

Surprised to hear the Broadway extension isn't proposed to even reach UBC. Doesn't Broadway all the way west to UBC generate quite a bit of traffic (aka the most used surface route in the country)

It will eventually extend there in the late 2020s hopefully.

I agree with most/all of this. And when it comes to light metro I still consider it very much subway/metro...just a loosely defined subset. If Sheppard weren't expandable to 150m and was simply a maxed out 100m 4-car system it is today, perhaps one could also consider it 'light'. But it'd still very much be a part of our subway system. And with Line 3 yeah it's small, but it's also a part of the subway/metro too. Where I do draw the line however, as does most or all technical classification, is with systems run unprotected from road or other rail. *But in no way should this be considered a knock against how great those systems/lines are.

As well, with Vancouver I basically equate their smaller-sized system as not so much small, rather scaled to their city and urban area. They're not TO, or NYC, nor ever will be. Something above street-running LRT but below 150m subways is reasonable.

Also I think in many instances people overestimate the volumes that can be carried by street-running LRT. 15k peak direction is the max I often see, but I have a very hard time believing that being doable. Ditto for the high avg speeds. Again, not a knock against these great lines. But when you look at the everyday capacity of the vehicles, or the growing traffic, or the addition of new signals/intersections that comes with development, or that we can't exactly run ATO for a streetcar/tram/LRV... the 15k number might be a bit high. Compare that with a fully grade-separated line using ATO and with open gangways. If it's run as 3-car T1s you can rest assured that the 15k will be easily carried at all times.

In Canadian context, Vancouver is very metro. Sheppard could be consider light especially if compared to busy places like HK. It could however carry 20000 pphpd if they ran with the same headways as Lines 1 and 2. With ATO, 22000 pphpd is doable. Of course it would be quite problematic if that happens as Sheppard-Yonge can't handle that many people filling up Line 1 trains. A relief line to Sheppard would be long needed before it reaches anywhere near 20000 pphpd. That also means all the people would have just taken the relief line, SmartTrack or whatever is out there then and would never filled Sheppard like that. The only way Sheppard will fill up is if employment increases in North York Centre. That's the very reason why Sheppard was built in the first place.

For LRTs. If TTC operates them like the 501 on Queensway at 10km/h through intersections. The whole LRT would be useless. Maybe it's time to install railway gates like Calgary does. LRTs are expected to face some red light time but it should be 20% of the time and not 70%. Otherwise trains would all be held at intersections.

 

[BurlOak]

Is there a Vancouver equivalent of the Relief Line?

For the time being I'll say Vancouver has the better system for a city of their size (it does seem to be working better than the TTC subways), but in the upcoming years, assuming Vancouver continues to grow, I foresee a significant capacity crisis, similar to what Toronto is experiencing. What the private sector designers did with the Canada Line is shameful.

I think the private sector designed the Canada Line exactly to the requirements that were given to them by the public sector.

As well, with Vancouver I basically equate their smaller-sized system as not so much small, rather scaled to their city and urban area. They're not TO, or NYC, nor ever will be. Something above street-running LRT but below 150m subways is reasonable.

"Scaled to the need". SkyTrain is not being proposed as a Yonge subway replacement. It is for Eglinton LRT, Eglinton East LRT, Eglinton West LRT, Finch LRT, Sheppard East. Each of these has ridership of 5k to 10k in 2031, and maybe 8k to 20k in 50 years.

 

[W. K. Lis]

If only the proposed City Council members for the TTC board would actually use the TTC.

I would accept one of these people, if they lived here in Toronto. From link.

Well, at least John Tory does.

 

[TheTigerMaster]

Does the (former) Prime Minister actually use the Underground, or was that just a photo op? I have a hard time believing his security would allow that (and rightfully so).

Oh, and speaking of that, I saw Tim Hudak on the subway nearly two years ago.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

Does the (former) Prime Minister actually use the Underground, or was that just a photo op? I have a hard time believing his security would allow that (and rightfully so).

Oh, and speaking of that, I saw Tim Hudak on the subway nearly two years ago.

David Miller used to use the subway all the time when he was mayor. I think people even got a few pictures of him with large checks from presentations well he was heading back to city hall.

 

[LNahid2000]

David Miller used to use the subway all the time when he was mayor. I think people even got a few pictures of him with large checks from presentations well he was heading back to city hall.

I didn't know David Miller was a Prime Minister. I'm pretty sure he's referring to David Cameron in the first picture; former Prime Minister of the UK.

 

[EastYorkTTCFan]

I didn't know David Miller was a Prime Minister. I'm pretty sure he's referring to David Cameron in the first picture; former Prime Minister of the UK.

No but I wa just pointing out that he did

 

[TDE]

Oh, and speaking of that, I saw Tim Hudak on the subway nearly two years ago.

...was it the day when he was campaining and got booted off?

 

[dowlingm]

It looks like TCONNECT wifi is now online from Broadview through to Greenwood, with Pape coming on line most recently. I noted some conduit and an access point box on the westbound Coxwell platform this morning which I think was not there yesterday, but I think it usually takes a couple of weeks to bring a station to test phase (locked SSID like "Pape-Test") and then go live.

Unfortunately the on-train experience still sucks, especially if you can't deal with the "Connect" page at your home station.

 

[Juan_Lennon416]

David Miller used to use the subway all the time when he was mayor. I think people even got a few pictures of him with large checks from presentations well he was heading back to city hall.

Who cares about David Miller