DSCToronto
Superstar
Because properly designed plastic seats can be very comfortable - fabric may look better but ...
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- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
Northern Light
Superstar
But looks matter.
So does comfort.
The idea that out of paranoia over disinfecting everything (which almost certainly does more harm than good) we should compromise on quality, comfort and aesthetics is a terrible mindset.
You and I agree on much; but on this we could not be further apart.
I would stop taking transit over the issue and buy myself a new Lexus.
Point blank.
As it stands we need more comfort and more style; we need the return of padded seats, we need high-backed, contoured seats, we need comfortable material, that's attractive; just as we need heated bus shelters in winter, and every stop should have an outdoor bench for summer, preferably with a shade tree over-topping it or a pergola; just as any remotely busy station should have washrooms, drinking fountains, water-bottle filling stations and retail or vending machines.
The standard needs to come up, or the service will erode as choice riders leave.
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EnviroTO
Senior Member
Plastic seats are a horrible idea. There is the microplastics / plastic-waste issue, there is the perception of what is means seats found nowhere else (cars, planes, private living space) is good enough for whomever would ride transit, and there is the comfort issue. We should make it look like we are trying to create a quality alternative to the car that is good for the city and good for the environment. If plastic seats were used they should be used because they beat out other seats on comfort & accessibility, environment, aesthetics, and maintenance costs... with the ranking in that order (maybe 40, 25, 20, 15). It seems clear to me that transit exists for the rider and the environment... the cheapest maintenance option is always no seats.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
So I went to Yorkdale this afternoon and there are no trains running both ways on a single track. At Lawrence West station the train from Finch terminates and heads back south again from the northbound platform using the storage track south of the station. They then have one train running between Lawrence West and Wilson stoping both ways at Yorkdale using the southbound track.
turbanplanner
Senior Member
I think plastic seats are crap but "Polyester fibres make up nearly three-quarters of microplastic pollution in the Arctic"
EnviroTO
Senior Member
Which means we should continue to look for a better option.
dkt
New Member
...and MiWay has seats that are even comfier than both
W. K. Lis
Superstar
Wondering. There was this tweet awhile ago...
To get better streetcar/light rail service on right-of-ways like Spadina (maybe add St. Clair, The Queensway, and the future light rail lines), replace the traffic signals at the intersections with 4-way stops (okay, flashing red lights). Actually, this shows how REAL transit priority signals should work. May have to stop streetcars/light rail vehicles for "safety", but they will get through the intersections before the left turning single-occupant motor vehicles and cross traffic.
To get better streetcar/light rail service on right-of-ways like Spadina (maybe add St. Clair, The Queensway, and the future light rail lines), replace the traffic signals at the intersections with 4-way stops (okay, flashing red lights). Actually, this shows how REAL transit priority signals should work. May have to stop streetcars/light rail vehicles for "safety", but they will get through the intersections before the left turning single-occupant motor vehicles and cross traffic.
T3G
Senior Member
Having just come back from New York, I highly disagree on the issue of plastic seats and especially on this post in particular.
It's not about COVID. The reality is such that in a city of more than 200k tops, upholstered seating is terrible. There are lots of people who use the system with varying personal hygiene standards, you don't know what sorts of unsavoury things have seeped into the seats. Plastic seats are easy to clean, if done right (like the seats on New York's trains) don't offer any crevices for bedbugs to hide away in, and at a quick glance, you can tell if a seat is clean or not easier than on dark coloured upholstery. About the only concern with fibreglass seats is that you can't see dried up piss, but any other kind of dirtiness that may be present in the seat is readily viewable to you. And I don't know about you, but I'd much rather sit on a slightly harder seat than to bring home bedbugs, but you do you.
As for why care about what Europe does? This kind of rhetoric is really getting on my nerves. Toronto is not its own alien city on another planet, it is part of a larger global community, and prosperous cities look at what is being done in other cities to tackle various issues (in fact, Toronto did that, once - it built a subway, 50 years after New York did, and almost 100 years after London did). It is this kind of rhetoric that is killing Toronto. If you don't care what Europe does, care what New York does. Toronto is a snooty little child parading itself next to grown ups and thinking they know more than they do, and it really, really shows. From our urban planning to our transit planning, from zoning to our handling of public spaces, Toronto's insistence on thinking it knows so much better than every other city on the planet is obvious in every facet of life.
EastYorkTTCFan
Senior Member
T3G
Senior Member
Perhaps there's a reason for that? If someone suggests ideas that we could borrow from Europe the correct response is not to immediately reply with "why do we care what Europe does?"
turbanplanner
Senior Member
Northern Light
Superstar
Public Transit has essentially similar characteristics in almost every OECD nation.
Sure, there are anomalies at both the local and national levels.......
The U.S. largely runs transit as a 'welfare' service outside of NYC and to a lesser degree DC; and has largely anemic levels of service, accordingly.
At the opposite extremes would be the elaborate subway stations of Moscow; or the 'pushers' of Japanese stations.
But almost everything in the middle is entirely comparable and even the extremes offer ideas worth poaching.
The notion that we can't take any idea from anywhere else and must re-invent the wheel drives up costs and slows innovation.
***
Ideas from elsewhere should be subject a reasonable, simple, checklist like 'does this work when its snowy?' But beyond that, we should be studying the best ideas from the best systems the world over
and adopting them apace.
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DSCToronto
Superstar
I don't think that anyone thinks ideas from elsewhere are always going to work well here. The valid point made by @T3G was that to reject 'foreign ideas' (as @EastYorkTTCFan seemed to suggest) is equally wrong.
Northern Light
Superstar
We fundamentally disagree on this. New York's transit system is unpleasant overall. Stations and trains have improved in the last 2 decades, but remain a level below Toronto, never mind Stockholm or Seoul.
The hygiene argument is oversold.
Taking it to the logical extreme, you would like to remove all fabric seating from restaurants too, right? And surely doctor's offices and hospitals, filled with sick people coughing etc.
Hard pass.
I'm not that paranoid. Yes we can look at fabrics that are anti-microbial and/or easier to wipe down; by all means lets talk about improved cleaning practices, and of course, lets offer assistance to those who are homeless or mentally challenged etc to provide them proper housing and care. But let's not reduce everything to 1990s food court seating. Ugh.