[nfitz]

I think its important to go further than this....

Operational reliability is also a very important issue. Gaps on the 506 this summer and fall have been horrific. 40 minute gaps have become normal, with their scheduling errors.

But raising it as part of this only confuses and dilutes things. City Hall isn't going to fix that in a budget.

 

[rbt]

Oh yeah, I know the SOGR backlog is crazy. I meant there's a relative largess for new builds.

Thankfully a large SOGR backlog isn't a problem if you don't live near Russell Hill. Right?

/shakes an angry fist at Ford (and Wynne and voters).

Those "Worst Road in Ontario" polls seem to achieve something maintenance wise. The Star should do something similar for TTC.

 

[allengeorge]

Of note so far: ATC on Line 2 now fully funded

I’m legitimately stunned that ATC for Line 2 is fully funded.

 

[Richard White]

I’m legitimately stunned that ATC for Line 2 is fully funded.

Considering the line and related signals are almost 60 years old now it makes sense to redo the signals.

 

[Towered]

Nothing like service cuts to make people think of the TTC as the better way :/

This is so upsetting.

Brilliant strategy to entice choice riders like myself back to the TTC!

 

[T3G]

The bit about the subway frequencies from TTC Riders seems very vague. Is anyone able to quantify that in some capacity? I presume (hope) service is not going to be slashed to 6 minutes or better at all times. Is it going to be middays? Evenings? What?

How very poetic: spend 12 years building the ATC network and jeopardize the jobs of countless subway operators, only for the promised "frequency improvements" to evaporate almost immediately after full implementation. Was this one of the biggest scams in our transit history?

 

[Northern Light]

The bit about the subway frequencies from TTC Riders seems very vague. Is anyone able to quantify that in some capacity? I presume (hope) service is not going to be slashed to 6 minutes or better at all times. Is it going to be middays? Evenings? What?

How very poetic: spend 12 years building the ATC network and jeopardize the jobs of countless subway operators, only for the promised "frequency improvements" to evaporate almost immediately after full implementation. Was this one of the biggest scams in our transit history?

My (subsequent) post on the previous page shows the extent of the cut by mode, but not time period:

That's an overall reduction of 17% from as-scheduled subway service in November.

If it were spread evenly (which it won't be).

That would increase a 5M headway to about 6M

But the fewer trains run in a given period, the deeper the cut.

So if the cut is late evening primiarly, you're looking at moving from every 6-8M to every 10M or more.

In that case, you'd still be looking at cuts at other times, just less so.

 

[T3G]

The TTC was built for commuting, not for leisure or running quick errands as minimum travel time is 30 mins even to go a few blocks.

Uh, what?

There are a ton of corridors with lots of local demand - the downtown streetcar network has a ton of commercial streets with a ton of demand for quick trips to run quick errands. Why would the minimum travel be 30 minutes to go a few blocks? From where are you grabbing your data?

The only possible way it could take 30 minutes to travel a few blocks is if there is a massive service disruption. This isn't an indicator of how the TTC was built.

 

[turbanplanner]

Uh, what?

There are a ton of corridors with lots of local demand - the downtown streetcar network has a ton of commercial streets with a ton of demand for quick trips to run quick errands. Why would the minimum travel be 30 minutes to go a few blocks? From where are you grabbing your data?

The only possible way it could take 30 minutes to travel a few blocks is if there is a massive service disruption. This isn't an indicator of how the TTC was built.

He's not wrong, I live in Scarborough and to go literally 3km would take me 40 mins by bus or about 4 mins by car.
Google maps times weren't realistic in my experience because I'd need to walk to the stop and leave 5 or 6 mins per bus to make sure it didn't come early, then I'd have to climb the stairs at warden and hope the next bus came around the same time.
Even if you don't have a subway transfer like I did, you generally need to take 2 routes and what are the chances they line up? How long will you wait in the cold in the winter?

The system is meant to shuttle people to the core (for the most part)

 

[APTA-2048]

He's not wrong, I live in Scarborough and to go literally 3km would take me 40 mins by bus or about 4 mins by car.
Google maps times weren't realistic in my experience because I'd need to walk to the stop and leave 5 or 6 mins per bus to make sure it didn't come early, then I'd have to climb the stairs at warden and hope the next bus came around the same time.
Even if you don't have a subway transfer like I did, you generally need to take 2 routes and what are the chances they line up? How long will you wait in the cold in the winter?

The system is meant to shuttle people to the core (for the most part)
View attachment 448866View attachment 448867

The absolute statement that the TTC was built for commuting is still false. Oakville and Burlington, now those are definitely built around commuting. And in some respects, they are trying to move away from that. There are still many trips that can be convenient when done by TTC in the suburbs. It usually helps, however, if you live off one the arterial routes with 10 minutes or better frequency. But local trips are notoriously hard to do in suburbs where destinations are spread so far apart. And out of everyone in the GTA, I think the TTC is still the best at serving suburban areas. It really is asking a lot for the TTC to fix poorly planned out land uses.

 

[DSC]

My (subsequent) post on the previous page shows the extent of the cut by mode, but not time period:

View attachment 448841

That's an overall reduction of 17% from as-scheduled subway service in November.

If it were spread evenly (which it won't be).

That would increase a 5M headway to about 6M

But the fewer trains run in a given period, the deeper the cut.

So if the cut is late evening primiarly, you're looking at moving from every 6-8M to every 10M or more.

In that case, you'd still be looking at cuts at other times, just less so.

Steve Munro has his usual in depth critiques and they answer some of the questions posed here, and raise others! See: https://stevemunro.ca/2023/01/06/ttc-2023-operating-budget/

 

[W. K. Lis]

The absolute statement that the TTC was built for commuting is still false. Oakville and Burlington, now those are definitely built around commuting. And in some respects, they are trying to move away from that. There are still many trips that can be convenient when done by TTC in the suburbs. It usually helps, however, if you live off one the arterial routes with 10 minutes or better frequency. But local trips are notoriously hard to do in suburbs where destinations are spread so far apart. And out of everyone in the GTA, I think the TTC is still the best at serving suburban areas. It really is asking a lot for the TTC to fix poorly planned out land uses.

Except for New York City, the TTC has more passengers using it during the non-rush hours compared to other North American cities.

The 510 SPADINA streetcar on Sunday afternoons, is more busy than most streetcar routes in the USA during rush-hours.

 

[drum118]

The absolute statement that the TTC was built for commuting is still false. Oakville and Burlington, now those are definitely built around commuting. And in some respects, they are trying to move away from that. There are still many trips that can be convenient when done by TTC in the suburbs. It usually helps, however, if you live off one the arterial routes with 10 minutes or better frequency. But local trips are notoriously hard to do in suburbs where destinations are spread so far apart. And out of everyone in the GTA, I think the TTC is still the best at serving suburban areas. It really is asking a lot for the TTC to fix poorly planned out land uses.

From my experiences using transit or watching it in the US, you are will see the odd systems offering service as low as 10 minutes for buses with most been 15-30. Weekends is between 30-90 minutes with most hourly. Streetcars service is 10-15 with most being 15. Other than NYC, subway service about 10 minutes with the odd line low a 7/8 minutes.

We complained about about poor services in Toronto, but its a lot better than most places in NA. It even beats a number of systems in Europe hands down.

 

[DSC]

From my experiences using transit or watching it in the US, you are will see the odd systems offering service as low as 10 minutes for buses with most been 15-30. Weekends is between 30-90 minutes with most hourly. Streetcars service is 10-15 with most being 15. Other than NYC, subway service about 10 minutes with the odd line low a 7/8 minutes.

We complained about about poor services in Toronto, but its a lot better than most places in NA. It even beats a number of systems in Europe hands down.

Yes, the TTC is better than transit in many places but, with just a little more care and thought and a far better plan for route management it could really be SO MUCH better without necessarily costing more.

 

[Sunnyside]

From my experiences using transit or watching it in the US, you are will see the odd systems offering service as low as 10 minutes for buses with most been 15-30. Weekends is between 30-90 minutes with most hourly. Streetcars service is 10-15 with most being 15. Other than NYC, subway service about 10 minutes with the odd line low a 7/8 minutes.

We complained about about poor services in Toronto, but its a lot better than most places in NA. It even beats a number of systems in Europe hands down.

Given the knowledge of transit on UT, I think the comparison to US systems is slowly continuing to become irrelevant. All American transit systems are a bar below the TTC, and Canadian systems as a whole. as you said yourself, most American bus networks see low frequencies.

Comparing the state of the TTC to American systems makes it difficult to be upset about worsening service. Nay, We should be asking if the TTC is meeting the standards of Canadian transit systems, where we consistently create usable networks at various scales and modes- in a literal and philosophical sense. The further degradation of the TTC contradicts government goals at all levels and our cultural valuation of transit. The TTC has avoided the small changes that have made the difference in service quality nationwide (bus lanes, BRT networks, transit priority, etc). Instead, opting for bruteforcing high levels of service. Meanwhile, internal processes stagnate/degrade, so we see no serious priority measures to optimize the present system and headways degrade into an incoherent mess on busy routes.

Regardless, this has been the status quo for a while now and has worked because the base service functioned adequately. The problem with service decreases is it will amplify the rot we already interact with. Not only will service be irregular, it will now be less frequent, amplifying gaps, bunching and capacity issues. We are witnessing a turning point for the TTC in real-time; how long until the province or feds get involved?