gabe
Senior Member
Yep. Plus all the mental health help in the world won't stop kids from causing problems on public transit. The lack of discipline at home and school is creating illiterate bullies.
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- Thread starter drum118
- Start date
Yep. Plus all the mental health help in the world won't stop kids from causing problems on public transit. The lack of discipline at home and school is creating illiterate bullies.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
Decided to skip the TTC hell scape today and took an Uber to/from home to harbour front. Cost $27.50 total, which my employer pays. Next week I have a meeting at Bloor and Isington - subway is right there, but I’m thinking to drive my own car. I think I’m developing a phobia of the insane.
DirectionNorth
Senior Member
Cops *could* be a short-term solution. With the usefulness (not!) of the TPS, I wouldn't count on that. Still, better than nothing.
If you can think of an immediate solution, I would love to hear it.
It's probably a copycat thing. One kid attacks a random dude, gets away with it, then the next kid does it ...
... teenagers are crazy sometimes. Don't tell me that you never did anything stupid in your teens, I wouldn't believe you.
Social malaise is not an easy problem to solve ...
The subway isn't open 24/7, it's more like 138 hours a week. Also, many of these incidents are occuring on streetcars and buses.
To effectively patrol the network, you'd need hundreds of officers, which is highly unlikely. Having police go around and patrol might be effective in a small number of cases, but it's safety theatre ... which I still think is important.
nfitz
Superstar
True ... probably closer to 138. But still if 4 shifts, that's still about 35 hours a week ... and I expect that's unrealistic. And still no vacations, sick days, and statutory holidays.
allengeorge
Senior Member
Like many posters I agree that the root of the problems are multi-faceted: unaffordability, housing unavailability, the decimation of mental-heath services by successive provincial governments and more.
That said, I do take a harder line than many activists: public space such as parks and transit stations/shelters are not appropriate places for the unhoused to stay. Especially when it comes to transit, having the unhoused in stations contributes to the general sense of decline and lack of safety.
At this point something needs to seem to be done, regardless of actual efficacy, because the TTC will be hemorrhaging riders this year because of the perception of safety, thus triggering a transit death spiral.
As to who is responsible; a pox on all our houses - from the Federal, Provincial and city governments who have made multiple systemic policy failures, to us as citizens, who were so focused on low taxes that we have excused years of decline that have finally culminated in this craziness.
(PS. I have special disdain for Rick Leary, that waste of space of a CEO. The Mayor has been more visible in championing the system than that incompetent.)
That said, I do take a harder line than many activists: public space such as parks and transit stations/shelters are not appropriate places for the unhoused to stay. Especially when it comes to transit, having the unhoused in stations contributes to the general sense of decline and lack of safety.
At this point something needs to seem to be done, regardless of actual efficacy, because the TTC will be hemorrhaging riders this year because of the perception of safety, thus triggering a transit death spiral.
As to who is responsible; a pox on all our houses - from the Federal, Provincial and city governments who have made multiple systemic policy failures, to us as citizens, who were so focused on low taxes that we have excused years of decline that have finally culminated in this craziness.
(PS. I have special disdain for Rick Leary, that waste of space of a CEO. The Mayor has been more visible in championing the system than that incompetent.)
Admiral Beez
Superstar
It's not the TTC's job to fix society. What I want the TTC to do is to enforce their own by-laws:
2.1 No person shall travel or attempt to travel on the transit system or enter a fare paid area, or attempt to enter a fare paid area without paying the appropriate fare
3.16 No person shall:
(b) shall solicit members of the public for any purpose on TTC property without authorization.
3.19 No person shall:
(b) lie down on a bench, seat or floor of any TTC property.
3.24 No person, unless otherwise authorized, shall loiter in or on TTC property.
3.25 No person shall cause a disturbance or act contrary to the public peace on TTC property, including:
b) using profane, insulting or obscene language or gestures;
c) behaving in an indecent or offensive manner;
f) behaving in a manner which would interfere with the ordinary enjoyment of persons using the transit system.
3.34 A proper authority may refuse passage on the transit system to:
a) a person behaving or appearing to behave in a manner that would interfere with the ordinary enjoyment of persons using the transit system or that may result in harm to themselves or others.
b) a person whose conduct is or is likely to be objectionable to other passengers;
When the TTC ignores the above six subsections of its own by-law, and demonstrably conveys to the public and potential troublemakers that the by-laws will not be enforced, the TTC puts us all at risk. It's only a matter of time before a class action lawsuit is brought against the TTC for knowingly endangering the public.
Richard White
Senior Member
It's not the TTC's job to fix society. What I want the TTC to do is to enforce their own by-laws:
2.1 No person shall travel or attempt to travel on the transit system or enter a fare paid area, or attempt to enter a fare paid area without paying the appropriate fare
3.16 No person shall:
(b) shall solicit members of the public for any purpose on TTC property without authorization.
3.19 No person shall:
(b) lie down on a bench, seat or floor of any TTC property.
3.24 No person, unless otherwise authorized, shall loiter in or on TTC property.
3.25 No person shall cause a disturbance or act contrary to the public peace on TTC property, including:
b) using profane, insulting or obscene language or gestures;
c) behaving in an indecent or offensive manner;
f) behaving in a manner which would interfere with the ordinary enjoyment of persons using the transit system.
3.34 A proper authority may refuse passage on the transit system to:
a) a person behaving or appearing to behave in a manner that would interfere with the ordinary enjoyment of persons using the transit system or that may result in harm to themselves or others.
b) a person whose conduct is or is likely to be objectionable to other passengers;
When the TTC ignores the above six subsections of its own by-law, and demonstrably conveys to the public and potential troublemakers that the by-laws will not be enforced, the TTC puts us all at risk. It's only a matter of time before a class action lawsuit is brought against the TTC for knowingly endangering the public.
Years ago in the early 1990s when my father was just starting at the TTC he regularly had addicts on his bus and in one case he was driving past his buddies bus as he was being assaulted.
In my fathers case, there was a guy huffing glue on the back of his GM New Look. He asked him to get off the bus because it was the middle of the day and kids were on the bus. The addict refused so my father manhandled him to the back door, put his foot on the step and tossed him out the back door. He told the addict that he had "reached his stop" and afterwards, people wrote in commending him for his actions.
In his buddies case, my father was running in when he saw his buddy being assaulted on his bus. From what I understand, he parked his bus and ran over to assist. He managed to peel the guy off his buddy who then started to attack my father.
My fathers buddy then smacked the guy over the back of the head with a fire extinguisher to subdue him. They left him on the side of the road and took off as they were not sure how alive he was. Nobody ever complained but my father did tear a strip off his buddy for the fire extinguisher.
My point is that assaults and addictions on the TTC are nothing new. They are just more prevalent now because of the fact everyone has a camera in their pocket.
My father had a saying when they mandated operators wear seatbelts. He said "I am not wearing a seatbelt so a guy can assault me while I try to get it off. If a guy assaults me, he is going down". My father grew up on the streets and has a bit of muscle on him. I have no doubt he would have done serious harm to someone who tried assaulting him.
Admiral Beez
Superstar
I remember in 2018 when I visited Singapore. I took public transit everywhere, even late at night and thought to myself, look at this place. Not a beggar, no litter, no visible addicts, no encampments, and the subway was clean, modern and efficient. I don't know what their secret is, presumably being a wealthy city state with near-dictatorial powers helps, but I'll take some please for Toronto. I think it's more than money and power in Singapore, it's also a state of mind, a mindset that public disorder will not be tolerated, combined with real civic pride.
My Granddad was a London (UK) bus driver from post-war until he retired in the early 1980s. The bus always had a driver and a guardsmen (collector) in the back, neither of whom you'd want to mess with. My Granddad was a military policeman in India during the war against Japan. The veterans took no guff.... but I don't think the passengers gave any either. I remember riding his bus as a lad and I have the impression today that everyone back then was more together as a society - probably from surviving the Blitz and that everyone was poor or just getting by. And if you were visibly mentally ill and especially potentially violently so, it was a padded cell at Bedlam (AKA, Bethlem Royal Hospital) not the streets for you.
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allengeorge
Senior Member
I don’t think it will fly to ask operators to escort people off vehicles. Look, I get it: it undermines our collective trust in society when people fare-jump or flagrantly violate rules, but I think many operators would not feel safe confronting or enforcing compliance. Who knows how the person will respond? Moreover, it’s really unclear that you will get support from management if things go south, not to mention that there is a noisy subsection of commentators who would be anti-enforcement, and who would try to drive debate/responses. It’s really a no-win.
I think the best operators could do is call transit control or the TPS and ask for someone to come. I can only imagine that from a logistics situation that’s complicated: do you run your route and TPS/Transit Constables try to intercept you along the way? Do you simply stop your vehicle and wait, thus inconveniencing hundreds of users?
I don’t have a solution. It really would be better if we avoided this situation in the first place.
I think the best operators could do is call transit control or the TPS and ask for someone to come. I can only imagine that from a logistics situation that’s complicated: do you run your route and TPS/Transit Constables try to intercept you along the way? Do you simply stop your vehicle and wait, thus inconveniencing hundreds of users?
I don’t have a solution. It really would be better if we avoided this situation in the first place.
fiendishlibrarian
Active Member
That is very tame compared to what my dad told me when he drove the Bloor night bus in the 70s and 80s. Some drivers on that crew would full-on pummel drunks, open the door, toss them out and be on their way. That sent a message out on the street very quickly, you do NOT mess with those drivers. Cops in that era were also more than happy to lend a hand to someone in uniform and respond in kind. Crowbars under the seats of streetcar drivers were also common, and I don't mean to pull switches. For good or bad, there was a lot more "street justice" dispensed back then that kept things on the straight and narrow.
ARG1
Senior Member
I don't think anyone wants to claim that COVID is solely responsible, but I think its worth to point out that whatever patterns were emerging prior to COVID, COVID significantly accelerated them. I don't think its deniable that constant lockdowns, media fear-mongering, all of the insanity that has been going on south of the border, and the latest round of inflation have significantly drained the mental health of many people not just in this city but around the world.That's a heck of an assumption. The homeless and mentally ill on the streets was an rising issue before Covid.
To suggest it's bounceback from lockdown is a big leap. It could just as much be that the overloaded healthcare system hasn't been able to cope with such individuals - who are less likely to wait 12-hours in emergency!
And yet 2/3 of the recent murders that we are discussing here, have been on the sidewalk, not on transit.
T3G
Senior Member
Not only that, but there's no indication any of it is going to get better! Rather than covid being the defining crisis of the generation, right now it seems it's the first in a series. We've gone from crippling social isolation to crippling inflation with the occasional threat of nuclear annihilation thrown in every now and again to spice things up. Then you can add in the larger threat of climate change and it's no surprise that so many people are afraid, and angry, and mistrustful.
The last time we saw such hopelessness on such a wide social scale, the consequences were alarming. We must be very careful who's solutions we are going to listen to moving forward.
Richard White
Senior Member
That is sort of what happened to my father.
The people he did toss out, that he did have to deal with never bothered him again because they knew what was going to happen.
That said, there were no cameras on the buses back then or smart phones. You could toss someone off a bus if they were misbehaving and nobody would care. Now if you do that, it is caught on camera and every activist out there is crying brutality
yrt+viva=1system
Senior Member
As much of a fan that I am of Singapore and other Asian countries, their social-cultural norms are totally different than ours. Many of these countries have zero tolerance for drug use/possession of any kind and have severe punishments associated. Punishments range from execution, caning, forced manual labour and forced rehabilitation (cold turkey from day one). I doubt that the Canadian public would be palpable to such extreme and verging on the edge of human rights abuse. Singapore if I remember correctly has colonial laws that include caning for any sort of public-civic vandalism/public graffiti especially on the their transit system. There's a few cases in recent years of foreigners (Germans and Australians) who thought it would be fun to test the limits of Singapores laws, only to end up being severed canings. South Korea and Japan have prison terms for any possession let alone use of illegal drugs (including marijuana). Malaysia, Indonesia and China have executions for drug possession.
It's also rare to see panhandling in some of these countries as socio-cultural norms enforce the notion that one has to work for a living.
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lenaitch
Senior Member
I think you are being a bit overly generous. If an operator manhandled (personhandled?) a passenger today, I think it is very clear what the response from management, the media and the noisy voices who claim to speak for everyone, would be.