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Perhaps there's a reason for that? If someone suggests ideas that we could borrow from Europe the correct response is not to immediately reply with "why do we care what Europe does?"
My point is it's an over used argument that people here that some people think mean that because Europe did it it's so much better than anything we can do here and we should do everything that they do instead of coming up with something different instead that might work differently than somewhere else.
 
New York's transit system is unpleasant overall. Stations and trains have improved in the last 2 decades, but remain a level below Toronto, never mind Stockholm or Seoul.
New York has issues, but I would say that besides the frequencies offered on many services off peak (taking the R train was the bane of my existence) and overall cleanliness the system feels superior to Toronto's. I would definitely not say it is unpleasant, though indeed the level of comfort offered is below that of many European metros.

But for all of its issues with cleanliness, I much rather sat down on their seats than the ones we have on the TTC.

Taking it to the logical extreme, you would like to remove all fabric seating from restaurants too, right? And surely doctor's offices and hospitals, filled with sick people coughing etc.
I'm not sure the comparison of restaurants is the right one, as restaurants usually see many, many less people on a given day than the interior of a transit vehicle. Fast food restaurants of course have long since adopted harder seating, as have the doctor's clinics near me.

I'm not that paranoid. Yes we can look at fabrics that are anti-microbial and/or easier to wipe down; by all means lets talk about improved cleaning practices, and of course, lets offer assistance to those who are homeless or mentally challenged etc to provide them proper housing and care. But let's not reduce everything to 1990s food court seating. Ugh.
It is not merely about assisting those who are homeless or mentally challenged and giving them the care they need, though I'm sure this would make the overall problem of hygiene on transit seats much less severe. If someone puts their feet up on the seats, or spills something messy from food they're eating like ketchup, it's going to be a challenge to clean... if indeed anyone bothers (and I don't believe the solution to this problem is to ban food and drink on transit, that is far too wannabe mall cop for me). I did read once that GO rarely ever takes the cushions out from the trains for cleaning unless the grime has built up to such an extent it is highly visible on the chair.

I respect your opinion and I agree with you on many issues but I don't think we're going to agree on this.
 
During the Meiji era, Japan sent emissaries around the world to learn what was considered the best food/transport system/medical system, etc, studied and copied it, then modified it based on their own needs and preferences. They also later started using a system of kaizen - continual reflection and improvement. Canada could stand to learn from that and do likewise, so no, we should not be dismissing European systems immediately without examining them (or any other well run area's systems).
 
As for the plastic vs fabric seat debate - even though I picked up a bedbug on the TTC recently and have been battling a bit of a war with them now as a result, I feel moving to plastic seats would be a cop out, like saying "I give up on having nice things because it's easier than creating a system or process that allows me to have nice things that work." If the ideal is to have comfy seats (and in my mind it is), then why can we not put all our brains together to work to solve it? (As an aside, I really don't understand how we can be the nation with the highest rate of tertiary education in the world and yet we struggle with so many basic things).
 
I feel moving to plastic seats would be a cop out, like saying "I give up on having nice things because it's easier than creating a system or process that allows me to have nice things that work." If the ideal is to have comfy seats (and in my mind it is), then why can we not put all our brains together to work to solve it?

Agreed!

(As an aside, I really don't understand how we can be the nation with the highest rate of tertiary education in the world and yet we struggle with so many basic things).

Apathy (look at the incredibly low voter turnout in the last election); inertia, lack of accountability would top my list as culprits.
 
As an aside, I really don't understand how we can be the nation with the highest rate of tertiary education in the world and yet we struggle with so many basic things).
Because we're obsessed with credentialism, not education ;)

Also, thanks for the bed bug heads-up. I'm not sitting on public transit again.
 
Having just come back from New York, I highly disagree on the issue of plastic seats and especially on this post in particular.
Having been in New York last summer, those plastic seats are god awful.

While you might not be wrong about the benefits of plastic seating from a cleanliness perspective, riding the thing has to be one of the most unpleasant experiences of my life. I think in total I spent more time either standing up, or surfing between the cars because my butt would get sore after sitting on those things for more than 5 minutes.
Perhaps there's a reason for that? If someone suggests ideas that we could borrow from Europe the correct response is not to immediately reply with "why do we care what Europe does?"
But this is a fallacy. I agree that Europe is absolutely a world leader in many elements such as urban planning and transit design, however they aren't gods amongst men. Just because Europe does something doesn't mean it's by default the right way to do something. Even European cities are prone to making mistakes, making decisions only due to them wanting to save money, or some of their decision making could done based on the context of it's city, and by no means something that could or should be replicated by other cities. To list some obvious examples, let's look at all of the French towns that built weird priority rubber tired trams simply because of lobbying from tarmac/tire companies. Or how about all of the rack-railways and rubber tire metros that were built in cities like Lausanne that replaced existing funiculars and thus needed that technology for the grades? In fact we can see the outcome with this in Montreal which ended up building a Rubber Tyre metro solely because Jean Drapeau liked them, and now Montreal is stuck with a legacy rubber-tyre Metro network that isn't suited to the climate and is thus expensive to expand, and has nothing to show for the technology other than maybe the Yellow Line making use of the steeper curves to go under the river. I can bring up a ton of examples of things Europeans do like tram-trains that are very context sensitive yet we in the west like the exploit because "that's what Europe does so it must be right".

Finally, I want to bring up east-asian cities like Tokyo for a moment. Many would argue that East and South-East Asia are as good, if not better than Europe in regards to urban and transit planning, yet a lot of Asian customs and norms heavily conflict with what you see in Europe. For starters, let's look at the context of this conversation - seat types, and see how it's done in Tokyo... oh my god, they're all padded!

1668491763745.png


In many cases, an example of something taken from Europe that one might claim as doing 'x' correctly, you can find a counterexample in some Asian city with them doing something completely different. European Urban Planning loves putting trams as a common form of mass transit, meanwhile in Asia you'll find elevated Metros and Light Metros in dense areas where you'd find trams in europe.

The point is, just because Europe does something one way, doesn't make it the "right way", and it's absolutely fair to criticize statements that just bring up some european city as proof that this is the way to do things.
 
These are what I was referring to. If you zoom in you can see the texture (doesn't come out in the picture as in person):

Screenshot_20221115_082655.jpg


Further, maybe we can't have nice things because we spend time splitting hairs talking about what seats to have instead of focusing on top issues that get me where I want to go on time with minimal waiting.🙃
 
But this is a fallacy. I agree that Europe is absolutely a world leader in many elements such as urban planning and transit design, however they aren't gods amongst men. Just because Europe does something doesn't mean it's by default the right way to do something. Even European cities are prone to making mistakes, making decisions only due to them wanting to save money, or some of their decision making could done based on the context of it's city, and by no means something that could or should be replicated by other cities.
Sure, you're not wrong that sometimes, European transit systems get it wrong, too. But the difference is that your post analyzes various issues where Europe gets it wrong, instead of just being a kneejerk reaction that Toronto is not Europe.

My point is that ideas require analysis and discussion, it is not enough to merely dismiss a European idea because Toronto is not Europe. If the idea truly lacks merit, said lack of merit should hold up under scrutiny.
 
Sure, you're not wrong that sometimes, European transit systems get it wrong, too. But the difference is that your post analyzes various issues where Europe gets it wrong, instead of just being a kneejerk reaction that Toronto is not Europe.

My point is that ideas require analysis and discussion, it is not enough to merely dismiss a European idea because Toronto is not Europe. If the idea truly lacks merit, said lack of merit should hold up under scrutiny.
I think what pole are trying to say is we don't have to do everything that they do in Euboean cites just because they do it there. There are some things that work there and some thing that don't work here using them as a perfect example of everything gets old fast. Like for example everyone talk about the underground being amazing but how often is it open late at night compared to the TTC subway network and do they have buses that cover it during the hours it's closed?
 
I think what pole are trying to say is we don't have to do everything that they do in Euboean cites just because they do it there.
No, but my argument is that "Toronto is not Europe" is not a trump card to shut down the discussion. In fact, it is not something that needs to be brought up, period. If I point to an idea from a city in Europe, and you don't like it, you should be able to justify why the idea is not good on its own lack of merit. The fact that Toronto is not Europe is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Like for example everyone talk about the underground being amazing but how often is it open late at night compared to the TTC subway network and do they have buses that cover it during the hours it's closed?
This is a curious example to bring up. The Tube has similar hours of operation to our own subway, and there are five lines that run a 24 hour service on Fridays and Saturdays: the Victoria, Central, Jubilee, Northern, and Piccadilly lines. How much of Toronto's subway network runs a 24 hour service on any given day at all? (NB: I do not necessarily care about there being 24 hour subway service in Toronto, but if you're going to criticize London, you should first acknowledge what our own situation is).

The question about night buses is very strange, too. London is a major city, so obviously they have a night bus network. People need to get around somehow even in the early hours of the morning.

Full disclosure: I have never been to London and have only a surface level of familiarity with their system. I'm sure they have their issues which we would not necessarily want to import, but the fact that you go after their hours of operation feels apropos of nothing.
 
No, but my argument is that "Toronto is not Europe" is not a trump card to shut down the discussion. In fact, it is not something that needs to be brought up, period. If I point to an idea from a city in Europe, and you don't like it, you should be able to justify why the idea is not good on its own lack of merit. The fact that Toronto is not Europe is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand.


This is a curious example to bring up. The Tube has similar hours of operation to our own subway, and there are five lines that run a 24 hour service on Fridays and Saturdays: the Victoria, Central, Jubilee, Northern, and Piccadilly lines. How much of Toronto's subway network runs a 24 hour service on any given day at all? (NB: I do not necessarily care about there being 24 hour subway service in Toronto, but if you're going to criticize London, you should first acknowledge what our own situation is).

The question about night buses is very strange, too. London is a major city, so obviously they have a night bus network. People need to get around somehow even in the early hours of the morning.

Full disclosure: I have never been to London and have only a surface level of familiarity with their system. I'm sure they have their issues which we would not necessarily want to import, but the fact that you go after their hours of operation feels apropos of nothing.
Whatever no body actually cares other than the people who say that things are better in Europe that's why people don't like when people say that. You're just proving that you seem to think that we should do something because Europe does it but we can't come up with something else because it's not what Europe does. That's why people say we aren't in Europe because some people seem to keep going on and on with stuff about how much better it is and we don't want to hear it because it's not a solution for everything so stop using it as one.
 
Your post is filled with strawmen accusations at me. I don't recall ever proposing turning Toronto into Europe. Can you show me a post where I said exactly that?

I recall bringing up examples of various solutions such as plastic seating and door request buttons which work fine in Europe. These are extremely small, extremely specific solutions to specific problems which Toronto could at least try to look at. How on earth does that translate into suggesting we turn all of Toronto into Europe, or that I suggest it as a solution for everything?

No one wants to hear about how Toronto is not Europe. I can look at the map on my wall and figure that out for myself. If you think my ideas are shit, explain why they're shit instead of the pedantic geography lesson.
 

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