[44 North]

Uhhh..

Why are you admitting to doing something illegal on a public forum?

To be fair we're at a point where I'm beginning to lose track of the unprovoked homicides and attempted murders on the TTC. It used to a be big deal. Now it's coming across as almost a regular occurrence. It shouldn't come across as Goetz-esque when we're talking about ones own physical safety, and that of their fellow passengers.

 

[Richard White]

To be fair we're at a point where I'm beginning to lose track of the unprovoked homicides and attempted murders on the TTC. It used to a be big deal. Now it's coming across as almost a regular occurrence. It shouldn't come across as Goetz-esque when we're talking about ones own physical safety, and that of their fellow passengers.

Fair or not it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon on the TTC (in this case a knife).

As well Pepper Spray is a controlled substance. Carrying it on you will get you in trouble if stopped.

 

[44 North]

Fair or not it is illegal to carry a concealed weapon on the TTC (in this case a knife).

As well Pepper Spray is a controlled substance. Carrying it on you will get you in trouble if stopped.

Interesting. I actually didn't know that. I thought dog sprays were legal and it was bear spray that was quasi-controlled. And I also didn't know knives were illegal. But are they? What about an Olfa knife? Super handy and I've carried one for years never for self defense purposes.

 

[Richard White]

Interesting. I actually didn't know that. I thought dog sprays were legal and it was bear spray that was quasi-controlled. And I also didn't know knives were illegal. But are they? What about an Olfa knife? Super handy and I've carried one for years never for self defense purposes.

Dog Spray, Pepper Spray or Bear Spray is all a controlled substance. People carry it all the time but it is illegal to have on you.

As for knives, if you are carrying any sort of bladed weapon with the intention of self defence as determined by peace officers you can have it confiscated and be arrested.

I can carry a pen around for writing but if I all of a sudden go bonkers I can pierce your trachea with it. Same goes with an Olfa knife.

 

[crs1026]

Anyone else carry a knife and pepper spray when they take the subway?

Certainly not.

Apart from the obvious legal issues, it's quite unlikely that one would be able to deploy such items if attacked without warning. Some of us have enough trouble getting our cellphone out of our pocket before the caller hangs up. Are we actually going to unfold and brandish a knife every time a homeless person approaches?

Which is not to say I'm not more careful about my surroundings, but the best defence is my sneakers.

Look, there are still certain legal grounds that can justify an individual being detained as a risk to themselves or others. The problem is that there is a huge grey area where symptoms or behaviour may suggest towards those grounds, but offer very little certainty that the individual is such a risk. If everyone demonstrating those symptoms to any degree, or to any real frequency, were detained - we'd have hundreds of detainees. And since the actual frequency of attacks on our street is very low, we'd be detaining large numbers of people who objectively do not represent a threat. That's both a logistical problem and a human rights problem.

It's a whole lot easier to say, with hindsight, that there were warning signs, than it is to say proactively that a person represents a definite, certain risk. Our institutions are not mandated to incarcerate people who "might" be a risk, and I don't believe we want them to. I do believe that our medical and security institutions still act when they have strong grounds.... but in the grey area, they give individuals the benefit of the doubt. It's a hugely grey area.

- Paul

 

[Northern Light]

Interesting. I actually didn't know that. I thought dog sprays were legal and it was bear spray that was quasi-controlled. And I also didn't know knives were illegal. But are they? What about an Olfa knife? Super handy and I've carried one for years never for self defense purposes.

All of these branded spray are essentially pepper spray, they may have slightly varying degrees of intensity or projectability (how far the spray goes); but are for all intents and purposes the same product.

In the case of Bear-Spray, which you can legally purchase here (MEC retails it) you generally have to present ID, sign for the purchase and attest you will use it only for its intended purpose.

You can, in that context, take it home on public transit (with a receipt showing you purchased it that day); or transport it, if you're taking the TTC to a bus or car pick-up where you will then be off on a camping trip or such.

However, you cannot make use of it against another person, nor can you carry it w/o legal excuse.

****

I haven't actually seen it sold as 'dog spray' in Canada, the Bear Spray version generally projects fairly far, the small can I think is 12ft, and the large can ~30-36ft ; something like that. (1/2 the length of a subway car)

Using that in the TTC would do far more than hit your assailant. In a closed space and/or if you're down wind, look out. Completely aside from the non-consequential matter of legal consequences.

On the latter subject:

Taken from: https://www.torontodefencelawyers.com/understanding-bear-spray-laws-in-canada/

 

[Undead]

It's absolutely ridiculous that pepper spray (the normal self defence kind) is illegal in this country.

 

[Megaton327]

Dog Spray, Pepper Spray or Bear Spray is all a controlled substance. People carry it all the time but it is illegal to have on you.

That's not true. Pepper spray that's labelled as for defensive use against people, yes, illegal period in Canada. Bear spray, not illegal to have on you e.g. if you're at your cottage up north in the woods, but yes if you were carrying it on the TTC you'd almost certainly be charged and convicted of an offense. Dog spray however, absolutely not a controlled substance, nor illegal to have on you. It would be illegal to be carrying it for use against people, or to use it on someone, but it is not illegal to purchase, possess, and carry on your person if you're doing so for potential use against violent dogs. If a police officer on the TTC were to ask you why you have it, and you were to say it's for potential use to defend against violent dogs, that would be legal; the police officer could say they don't believe you and charge you with an offense, but I think the odds of conviction would be quite low, there are many people who walk their dogs downtown and take them on the TTC and one can find plenty of videos online of violent attacks by pitbulls and other dogs, so it would be very plausible that you're telling the truth. On the other hand, if you told them you're carrying it for defense against people, yes, you'd be charged and likely convicted of an offense. I would never advocate lying to the police.

 

[Northern Light]

It's absolutely ridiculous that pepper spray (the normal self defence kind) is illegal in this country.

I don't think so.

Its a weapon, its purpose-built as a weapon. We don't allow people to carry any object, purpose-built as a weapon which has no lawful use.

You can't legally own/carry a switch-blade in Canada; you can carry a knife that has a lawful use, for a lawful purpose.
But not expressly as a weapon.

You do realize if Mace/Pepperspray were legal here more criminals would use it.

Also, its actually not effective for most people for a host of reasons, people always imagine highly unrealistic scenarios in which they will be able to deal with a potential assault.

Here's the thing, if you pull out pepperspray and use it before someone has assaulted you, you are the assailant, no less than if you stabbed someone first.
If you wait until you're being assaulted, good luck on that.

***

Remember the U.S. is one of the few OECD countries that allows such things as it has the highest violent crime rate. There is a connection.

***

As to what is and is not illegal here. Beyond the restrictions specific to firearms:

Is it legal to carry a weapon, gun, mace or pepper spray? - FREE Legal Information | Legal Line

Unlike some jurisdictions, such as the United States, and portrayals in the media, Canadian citizens are generally prohibited from carrying mace, pepper spray, handguns and most other weapons. If you are unsure about what weapons are legal to carry, What weapons and firearms are illegal? In...

www.legalline.ca

 

[mossynukes]

Anyone else carry a knife and pepper spray when they take the subway?

else? https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/f-11.6/
You can not carry pepper spray in Canada, its illegal, and depending on the knife I doubt you can legally carry that on the subway

 

[W. K. Lis]

This man with the knife and pepper is doing so illegally?

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

Honestly at this point the question is whether you have the skills to use pepper spray effectively when you need to; whether it is legal or not felt like a secondary issue.

AoD

 

[Richard White]

This man with the knife and pepper is doing so illegally?

No, he was just a moron.

This was an advertising things for Wendys I believe.

 

[Undead]

You do realize if Mace/Pepperspray were legal here more criminals would use it.

That argument never sat well with me. Criminals don't care if something is legal or not. They'll have weapons regardless. Our laws make it more difficult for ordinary people to defend themselves.

Of course, self defence should inflict only the minimal necessarily harm. We could discuss whether spray is the right tool. But we should have that conversation. Sadly Canadians seem too compliant and willing to roll over.

 

[Northern Light]

That argument never sat well with me. Criminals don't care if something is legal or not. They'll have weapons regardless. Our laws make it more difficult for ordinary people to defend themselves.

The problem with this argument, with great respect, is that the evidence does not support it.

Virtually every country with tough control on firearms sees far fewer victims of firearms crime.
Virtually every country with tight control on other types of weapons see less of that type of crime.
The developed country with the fewest controls (The U.S.) sees the greatest amount of violent crime.

I'm not sure why you advocate for more violent crime and more victims. I'm sure you don't mean to, but the evidence suggests that for which are you advocating would achieve just that.

***

I'm almost amused by this 'criminals don't care' nonsense.

Sure they do.

1) If its a criminal offense simply to possess a weapon, even if you don't use it, fewer people will have it on their person, and therefore fewer will commit crimes with said weapons.

2) Convenience matters. If you want to use a weapon to commit a crime, it matters if its on your person, in your car, or available at the Wal-Mart down the street for purchase. If you have to go home to get it, or buy it on the black market, the impulse
to acquire such a weapon diminishes and the situation passes.

3) Price Matters. When weapons are illegal, they are invariably more expensive to purchase. Can the mafia or a large gang still afford them?, yes. However, most street criminals are not provided free weapons by a gang or the mafia. They have to buy them. When a handgun sets you back $1,400 a lot fewer criminals buy them and use them. Likewise pepperspray or switchblades.

The evidence is clear on all of the above points and reflected in crime stats around the globe.


****

Perhaps though, this sub-thread discussion has run its course and we can move on to other matters TTC?