[gweed123]

This is certainly possible. But, a) transit on that section of Finch West will still run in mixed traffic and remain dependent on congestion,

Until Phase 2 of the FWLRT is complete, this will be the case anyway. And even when the FWLRT is finished, in order to cross Yonge they would need to transfer onto a bus there. And there's nothing stopping the TTC from putting in the occasional queue jump lane to get things moving a bit quicker if needed.

and b) riders who want to get to Finch / Yonge, or continue north on Yonge, will have to either transfer to the bus at Keele, or take an LRT detour south via Dufferin and Shepprd before going back north.

But how many people taking the Finch West bus currently end their trip at Finch & Yonge? I would guess a very small amount. Most of them are transferring and taking the Yonge subway southbound.

Basically, by diverting the Finch line south to meet Sheppard, you are making life easier for those who want to go across Yonge, but harder to those who just want to reach Yonge. And I am not sure that the first group is larger than the second group.

If I remember correctly, the plan for the FWLRT had it at-grade until just before Yonge, and then dipping underground, correct? This would mean that it would still be subject to some delays on Finch, especially between Bathurst and Yonge. Taking Sheppard West, 1/3rd of which would be in a tunnel, would probably end up being a wash compared to taking Finch. The diversion down to Sheppard is only an extra 2km of track, yet a significantly higher percentage of that is tunnelled.

And diverting down to Sheppard I don't think is a big deal anyway, because most of the riders transferring from the bus to the subway at Finch are going southbound, at least as far as Sheppard. Whether you go over and down, or over, down, and over again ends up pretty much being a wash in the end. So that covers the "getting to Yonge" group. As for the "getting across Yonge" group, you have the Finch East bus which would cross Yonge, and a complete crosstown LRT. Far better than having 2 RT lines end at Yonge 2km apart.

 

[BurlOak]

An Uptown Crosstown LRT would still serve all of those trip patterns. Personally, what I'd like to see is the combined Finch-Sheppard LRT, as well as an Express BRT in the Finch Hydro corridor. That would be the only real way to get an 'express' northern crosstown route.

I think that it was on Steve Munro's blog - maybe by him, where it was said as a quip that maybe the transit should be on Finch and the cars should be on the hydro corridor. I alway imagined that transit in this corridor would be more acceptable to hydro since there would be less chance of collision with hydro towers. I know some others have proposed a highway 448 through the Scarborough hydro corridor. I am quite sure that it would be next to imposible politically to build a full freeway in these locations, but maybe some type of arterial road woud work.

 

[GenerationW]

Why not just have the sheppard subway going west to revdale blvd and the east mall and morningside in the east. Make a complete line and rezone. Same with the Finch LRT. Build it from Humber to Finch/Morningside.Run the BD subway past these two route to McCowan/Steeles. We have one chance to get this right. The suwbays need to serve all of scarborough, otherwise we move the isolation to brimley(eastern scarborough) rather then the whole borough. Let's do this properly. Going from Fairview to STC solves nothing. BD going to STC and crossing two lines that have of both modes bringing more riders in does for the long term.

Why not? Cost, ridership, cost, ridership, and cost.

 

[Evening]

I'm not too familiar with the area but from the conversation Im seeing here I thought I could put a few comments in here. Though I like the idea of a Sheppard East/Finch West crosstown route, it appears this would mean core areas on Finch and core areas on Sheppard maybe missed out depending on the alignment. What would probably be best is to have Sheppared continue to Downsview and Finch continue to Yonge. You will get overlap and the route will no longer be a crosstown but it would be best for future transit expansion without upsetting people's commutes now. Also Im assuming these LRT lines (with the except of the proposal for converting the sheppard line), will all be at-grade and not as arduous or expensive to expand when the time comes.

 

[gweed123]

I think that it was on Steve Munro's blog - maybe by him, where it was said as a quip that maybe the transit should be on Finch and the cars should be on the hydro corridor. I alway imagined that transit in this corridor would be more acceptable to hydro since there would be less chance of collision with hydro towers. I know some others have proposed a highway 448 through the Scarborough hydro corridor. I am quite sure that it would be next to imposible politically to build a full freeway in these locations, but maybe some type of arterial road woud work.

Sounds like you're describing Hunt Club Rd West in Ottawa, between Woodroffe and Greenbank. Have a look at it on Google Earth. It's a 4 lane divided arterial that meanders in between hydro towers.

 

[Rainforest]

One set of those connections would be just north of Wilson Station - at grade no less. The other set of connections would be just west of the new Downsview station. These would be underground, but could be easily excavated with an open cut since there is nothing above that area.

Tho southbound connection should be doable, exactly for the reason you mentioned: it can be done at grade.

It is the northbound connection that might be difficult to add. You need to open the existing tunnel, and perhaps widen it for visibility. Also, "nothing above that area" is true at present, but might no longer hold by the time the funding is available. The area is quickly building up.

 

[Rainforest]

If I remember correctly, the plan for the FWLRT had it at-grade until just before Yonge, and then dipping underground, correct? This would mean that it would still be subject to some delays on Finch, especially between Bathurst and Yonge. Taking Sheppard West, 1/3rd of which would be in a tunnel, would probably end up being a wash compared to taking Finch. The diversion down to Sheppard is only an extra 2km of track, yet a significantly higher percentage of that is tunnelled.

It will be approximately same length in median, plus 1.5 km underground.

Finch west straight to Yonge: 6 km from Keele.

Blended route: 2 km to Dufferin, 2 km down Dufferin to Sheppard, 2.5 km along Sheppard to the West Don bridge, and then 1.5 km in a tunnel to Yonge.

The blended route certainly will not be faster than the straight one.

 

[BurlOak]

Tho southbound connection should be doable, exactly for the reason you mentioned: it can be done at grade.

It is the northbound connection that might be difficult to add. You need to open the existing tunnel, and perhaps widen it for visibility. Also, "nothing above that area" is true at present, but might no longer hold by the time the funding is available. The area is quickly building up.

I believe that the northbound connection area was built using TBM. Even if this connection were to be done now, the process would be to let the TBM's go through and then do an open excavation to make the connections. so essentially doing it now or later does not make that much of a difference. Originally, I believe this area was planned to be built using cut-and-cover so that indicates that it could probably be done without too much difficulty. I think this open excavation and tunnelling (the only tunnelling required at and west of Allen) under the current Downsview Station would still be easier than building an interchange station underneath the current Downsview Station.

All that's left is to keep the area above this connection point free from development until the subway is built. If the City can't be that part straight, we may as well give up on transit now.

 

[gweed123]

It will be approximately same length in median, plus 1.5 km underground.

Finch west straight to Yonge: 6 km from Keele.

Blended route: 2 km to Dufferin, 2 km down Dufferin to Sheppard, 2.5 km along Sheppard to the West Don bridge, and then 1.5 km in a tunnel to Yonge.

The blended route certainly will not be faster than the straight one.

It may be faster to get TO Yonge if you're taking Finch straight across, but let's be honest here: most people who are getting off the Finch bus at Finch Stn aren't finishing their journey there. They're taking the Yonge Subway southbound, the vast majority of whom are going at least as far as Sheppard.

If the measurement is from Finch West Station to Sheppard-Yonge, I would think that the combined route would be faster than going FWLRT to Finch Station, and then down to Sheppard-Yonge.

Very few of the riders who get off the bus at Finch Stn are either a) boarding another TTC bus, or b) taking VIVA northbound. Most are southbound on the subway. But for the riders that actually are crossing Yonge, a combined route is better than having to transfer at Yonge.

 

[M II A II R II K]

[video=youtube;6pa6eXErmmw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6pa6eXErmmw[/video]

 

[junctionist]

That was a classic.

 

[kEiThZ]

IMO, the best configuration is:
- Sheppard subway from Downsview to Agincourt GO
- Sheppard LRT from Agincourt GO to the Zoo
- Finch LRT from Humber College to Yonge, with possible further extensions to the airport and to the east of Yonge

Many said we were ignorant when me, gweed and CC made the same proposal year ago.

If you are talking about crosstown trips (and crosstown within the city of Toronto boundaries by itself is pretty meaningless), even subways are way too slow. You really need GO like regional rail.

AoD

There is no GO crosstown proposal that solves the northern crosstown problem. A subway, however, would go a long way. Acknowledging the fact that building Sheppard out completely is not fiscally possible. A partial build-out (Agincourt to Downsview) would dramatically improve crosstown travel in the north.

Exactly. All these rich Yonge & Eglinton people were all up in arms because it was going to cost them more money to put a fully grade separated LRT out to STC, but now that it's half at grade and half fully grade separated it's ok. You know why? Because people who live at Yonge & Eglinton seldom go to STC or anywhere outside of their inner urban cocoon. It's like a new form of nimbyism, except it's more like Not in your backyard. You use LRT for short to medium trips. As it's been stated multiple times, People in Scarborough aren't taking the LRT to go one or two stops, their taking it for long distance trips. Gosh this whole debate always gets to me. You don't need a subway per se to address this, but at least an LRT option that isn't stoping at Stop Lights would be better.

Exactly why you won't see much progress on these debates. And you'll continue to see bitterness even after something gets built. Transit geeks can make all the arguments they want about what is fiscally sustainable and all that. But at the end of the day, if somebody is forced to commute for two hours everyday (I know somebody who commutes Malvern-Humber College daily to get in for 0745...try doing that and see how long you won't complain about why there isn't a crosstown subway), you aren't likely to change their opinion very much. The LRTs scarcely dent commute times for those in the inner suburbs. So I don't expect the griping to stop once the LRTs are built. And that actually makes things worse, because once the LRTs are built, there will be a tendency for government to move on to other areas and then will be all sorts of justifications to implement other policies (say fare-by-distance) and you might get even less co-operation from the inner burbs than you do today.

 

[AlvinofDiaspar]

There is no GO crosstown proposal that solves the northern crosstown problem. A subway, however, would go a long way. Acknowledging the fact that building Sheppard out completely is not fiscally possible. A partial build-out (Agincourt to Downsview) would dramatically improve crosstown travel in the north.

Except that it isn't crosstown travel, and you'd run up to the very same transfer issue unless your destination so happen to fall onto Spadina line. I mean, just how much time would such a scheme save, in comparison to a Eglinton like arrangement with Sheppard Subway to LRT conversion and at/above grade expansion at both ends?

AoD

 

[kEiThZ]

Except that it isn't crosstown travel, and you'd run up to the very same transfer issue unless your destination so happen to fall onto Spadina line. I mean, just how much time would such a scheme save, in comparison to a Eglinton like arrangement with Sheppard Subway to LRT conversion and at/above grade expansion at both ends?

AoD

To be clear, I have no issues with a conversion of Sheppard. I actually think that's the best idea. Unfortunately, a lot of people (including folks at the TTC) seem to be against "downgrading" capacity. So in the absence of that, then yes, let's extend the subway a bit. As it stands, the LRT operation as planned today is terrible. It's really only saving time vs. a bus on Sheppard East. You still have multiple transfers in the same corridor and absolutely no respite on the terrible congestion along Sheppard from Yonge to Downsview.

In the end, what is needed is something that gets you from the middle of Scarborough to Etobicoke (and points between) in a reasonable amount of time. The goal should be to be able get around anywhere in the city within 1.5 hours. I believe that's the point at which you'll start seeing people appreciate, use and support transit a lot more.

 

[JWBF]

To be clear, I have no issues with a conversion of Sheppard. I actually think that's the best idea. Unfortunately, a lot of people (including folks at the TTC) seem to be against "downgrading" capacity. So in the absence of that, then yes, let's extend the subway a bit. As it stands, the LRT operation as planned today is terrible. It's really only saving time vs. a bus on Sheppard East. You still have multiple transfers in the same corridor and absolutely no respite on the terrible congestion along Sheppard from Yonge to Downsview.

In the end, what is needed is something that gets you from the middle of Scarborough to Etobicoke (and points between) in a reasonable amount of time. The goal should be to be able get around anywhere in the city within 1.5 hours. I believe that's the point at which you'll start seeing people appreciate, use and support transit a lot more.

I agree, conversion to an RT for the length of Sheppard would work better. The Eglinton approach of underground at congestion points logical.

If there is an extension to the existing line I think Warden would be logical, with a station at Corporate and Victoria Park.