Solid Snake
Active Member
I get your analysis, but that will never fly politically.
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- Thread starter LAz
- Start date
I get your analysis, but that will never fly politically.
Rerouting Finch West would save a considerable amount of money. I get that the conversion would be a hard sell politically, but if you take that extra couple hundred million that's saved and divert it towards another project, I think it could gain considerable support.
Obviously that money saved wouldn't do much for a subway project, but it could build BRT lanes on Finch East, or extend Finch West further west, or build an Sheppard/Finch LRT spur to STC.
I would hope that politicians would see the benefit in having 3 relatively parallel crosstown lines (Bloor-Danforth as the Lower Crosstown, Eglinton as the Midtown Crosstown, and Sheppard-Finch as the Uptown Crosstown).
sixrings
Senior Member
we are willing to spend 500-1 billion dollars to eliminate a transfer at kennedy for the SUBWAY to SRT.... but we wouldn't be willing to spend 500 million here to eliminate the transfer from LRT to Subway??????
Not a fan how Subway advocates refer to transit city as TRANSFER city but when eliminating a transfer to make a crosstown line that is LRT they simply right it off as being politically unacceptable. Would that mean the transfer is politically acceptable?
Not a fan how Subway advocates refer to transit city as TRANSFER city but when eliminating a transfer to make a crosstown line that is LRT they simply right it off as being politically unacceptable. Would that mean the transfer is politically acceptable?
Solid Snake
Active Member
And this is exactly why it would never fly politically. I don't disagree with your analysis. It makes sense but politically it doesn't.
Converting the subway to LRT will get a lot of people angry in North York and those using it from Scarborough. You have to take into account that you would need to shut down Sheppard subway for who knows how many years. Then you have to force all those people into already over crowded buses and run shuttles. When the weather goes bad, their anger will just rise that much more.
And for what? So you can redistribute the money elsewhere like downtown? But they pay the same taxes too and on top of that, we're being sold that "revenue tools aka taxes" will give them better service but the end result is that the current service is being downgraded and they pay more taxes.
Good luck running for office on that.
And that's why no mayor or Premier in his right mind will ever go there.
The extra 500 to 800$ a year that families will have to pay in taxes was supposed to provide additional transit or/and upgrades. After paying thoses extra taxes, they expect government to be able to add the LRT and BRT on top of what they already have, not downgrading and patching.
Like I said, when all we had was 8.4B$, it would have been easier to sell. It was easy to tell Scarborough, North York and Etobicoke that LRT was the only option because there was no money which was true.
But as soon the province will raise 2B$ (FOREVER...no government gets rid of taxes), that argument went flying out the windows. People will no longer accept being told that BRT and LRT is all they can get when each household will have to pay between 500-800$ more a year in transit taxes. Sure you can't build subways or LRTs everywhere, but downgrading will be unacceptable to citizens being asked to pay more.
If we were Denver like Cllr Shelley was trying to compare us to yesterday to sell Transit City despite asking us to pay more, I'd understand... but this is Toronto, the 4th metropolis in North America. It's time we start acting like it.
Go to New York and Chicago and rapid transit unifies the city (Don't care if it's LRT or Subway as long as it's 100% grade separated)
If your plan is for the LRT to be elevated like the Sky Train or in trench where it's possible, we'll talk.
Are you comparing Bloor Danforth and Eglinton to Sheppard/Finch? The level of service is different thus not equal.
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sixrings
Senior Member
pretty sure when people use the Eglinton LRT and see how well it is to be on a line without transfers which is both at grade and underground they will want the sheppard transfer eliminated. Eglinton will be the poster child for Subway conversion.
innsertnamehere
Superstar
I think a third north south line is a bit more urgent than a 3rd crosstown line.
sixrings
Senior Member
yet you suggested interlining???? whats the difference?????? Gweed and I were simply suggesting if we are going to build 2 lines maybe it is possible to link them together to save money and to eliminate transfers...
Solid Snake
Active Member
The people of the grade separated part will love it.
But you people don't think past Don Mills. What happens when a truck or a buses hit an LRT at an intersection?
-The at grade part of the line will be shut down.
-Those people will have to wait for shuttle buses and they don't show up for a long time...imagine in the middle of a storm.
-the tunnel part will continue to have trains because they will short turn at Don Mills.
When that happens, people from Scarborough won't share your opinion. The grade separated part of the line conveniently stop at their doorsteps. They are being told that there was no money but here they are paying the same taxes than the rest of the city and on top of that, they have to pay an extra 500-800$ a year to improve transit...
You just created a 2 tier system on the same line. Wow...
Elevating the eastern part of the line is fair.
sixrings
Senior Member
This is crazy... I am not suggesting building a two tier line... you are twisting things more then Rob ford. You are simply ignoring all the benefits, the costs and the elimination of transfers. I would have thought with the Bloor Danforth line being extended to Scarborough Town Centre and to Sheppard that there would be more reasonable discussion from Scarborough residents. BTW I grew up as a Scarborough resident and went to Agincourt H.S so I am definitely familiar with the area and am sympathetic to the issues. That being said I can say with certainty that a lot of Scarborough riders will now choose the Bloor line versus the Sheppard line, which will cause Sheppard ridership to drop. Secondly other then the time factor of having those long commutes the most frustrating thing about transit when rides are long are transfers which could in theory be avoided.
Solid Snake
Active Member
If there was limited cash, I'd agree with you
But the province wants us to pay an extra 500-800$ a year of taxes for transit. That's where it doesn't work. That 2B$ a year is FOREVER...and you would chose a downgrade? so the extra money would go...where exactly? Towards the 905 like Councillor Matlow said yesterday?
I think after a few years of LRT to subway transfers at Don Mills, and once the 1st phase of the FWLRT is open, people will start asking "can we link the two to eliminate the transfer?". I expect the same sentiment to exist when the SLRT and ECLRT meet at Kennedy, but don't run as a thru-line. I suspect that "separate" arrangement will last at most for a year before they're running them at least partly as a single line. People will see how much better it is, and attention will turn to do the same thing on Sheppard.
No reason why it can't run elevated along Dufferin. You know that I'm all in favour of elevating, but some parts of the Uptown Crosstown route may be hard to do.
I'm comparing them in the sense that they, if completed, would all run from Etobicoke to Scarborough. I didn't mention service levels at all.
No doubt. But we're already building the 2 outer portions of the Uptown Crosstown, and half of the central part already exists. The only thing that's missing is the connection between the two halves.
Finch West will eventually be completed to Yonge. What I'm saying is that same amount of money could get the FWLRT from Finch West station across Finch to Dufferin, down Dufferin to Downsview, and then a bit along Sheppard West for the same cost as building it right to Finch Stn. It may even be the same cost as bringing the FWLRT all the way to where the Sheppard Subway ends at Senlac. Spend an extra $600 million for a portal and the conversion of the Sheppard Subway, and you have a single thru-line from Humber College to the zoo.
11th
Senior Member
With that routing, you've just skipped the section of Sheppard West with (one of) the most densification.
Rainforest
Senior Member
An LRT Crosstown in the north of the city cannot be effective, since the city is very wide in the north and a trip on LRT will take too much time. The estimated trip time on the proposed Finch / Sheppard LRT (that incorporates the existing Sheppard subway tunnel) from Meadowvale to Humber College will be 1 h 40 min one way.
We do not have money for a fast crosstown route in the north. Then, it is better to focus on the realistic travel patterns, and optimize connections from the east and west to the center of North York around Yonge, and the two N-S subway lines (Yonge and Spadina).
IMO, the best configuration is:
- Sheppard subway from Downsview to Agincourt GO
- Sheppard LRT from Agincourt GO to the Zoo
- Finch LRT from Humber College to Yonge, with possible further extensions to the airport and to the east of Yonge
If there is no funds for the eastward extension of Sheppard subway, then just start Sheppard LRT at Don Mills.
Between Yonge and Downsview, the saving from using LRT is trivial, and will not offset the cost of converting the existing subway. If there are money for the conversion of the subway, it is better to use them to extend the subway to Downsview. Of course, this should not be treated as the highest priority project; there are more pressing needs elsewhere in the system.
We do not have money for a fast crosstown route in the north. Then, it is better to focus on the realistic travel patterns, and optimize connections from the east and west to the center of North York around Yonge, and the two N-S subway lines (Yonge and Spadina).
IMO, the best configuration is:
- Sheppard subway from Downsview to Agincourt GO
- Sheppard LRT from Agincourt GO to the Zoo
- Finch LRT from Humber College to Yonge, with possible further extensions to the airport and to the east of Yonge
If there is no funds for the eastward extension of Sheppard subway, then just start Sheppard LRT at Don Mills.
Between Yonge and Downsview, the saving from using LRT is trivial, and will not offset the cost of converting the existing subway. If there are money for the conversion of the subway, it is better to use them to extend the subway to Downsview. Of course, this should not be treated as the highest priority project; there are more pressing needs elsewhere in the system.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
If you are talking about crosstown trips (and crosstown within the city of Toronto boundaries by itself is pretty meaningless), even subways are way too slow. You really need GO like regional rail.
AoD
AoD