[gweed123]

Hang on - your comparing the piece of Woodroffe where they DID build a Transitway, to the piece of Sheppard, where they decided they couldn't put the LRT on surface, and are tunelling it? Move further south on Woodroffe, and east on Sheppard.

That's the only traffic count I could find.

Visually, just doesn't look the same. Around Majestic and Knoxdale, I just see low density. The best I see is a single 3-story small office building. And not a pedestrian in site walking along Woodroffe. Looking at Sheppard East near Pharmacy, I see high-rises, pedestrians, etc. Ditto near Birchmount.

Perhaps it's more similiar to east of McCowan and especially east of Markham. But that's not really why we are building the LRT, is it.

Yes, Sheppard has more density, but the traffic volumes are about the same, both in terms of traffic volume and transit ridership.

I also cited the Baseline Road project, which has a lot more condos and general residential on it.

My overall point is that BRT is suitable for Sheppard East, even without 'bypass lanes'. Full shoulder BRT lanes are only needed from Don Mills to McCowan, with queue jump lanes being enough after that. Point is that this would be significantly less expensive than the LRT, and would be all that Sheppard East needs for the foreseeable future.

 

[nfitz]

My overall point is that BRT is suitable for Sheppard East, even without 'bypass lanes'. Full shoulder BRT lanes are only needed from Don Mills to McCowan, with queue jump lanes being enough after that. Point is that this would be significantly less expensive than the LRT, and would be all that Sheppard East needs for the foreseeable future.

And yet experts have already dismissed this.

Why keep debating the past, instead of the future? It's pointless, and only serves to derail transit projects.

 

[gweed123]

And yet experts have already dismissed this.

Why keep debating the past, instead of the future? It's pointless, and only serves to derail transit projects.

But it was 'dismissed' based on design parameters that weren't needed (i.e. passing lanes would have made the ROW too wide, therefore BRT shouldn't be used). It's like saying "The design for the LRT on Sheppard we're going to use is at-grade four-tracked LRT. The design doesn't warrant four-tracked LRT. Therefore LRT is inappropriate for the corridor."

The set of design parameters that were used to evaluate the BRT option were purposely set up to have BRT be dropped from consideration. If they would have used more realistic design parameters (shoulder bus lanes without passing lanes), I'm almost positive it wouldn't have been screened out as an option.

 

[BurlOak]

Still think the bloor subway should be extended, but alas, it cannot be.

the second to last paragraph states:

The Scarborough RT corridor could be effectively served by either light rail or subway. A subway replacement would offer the benefit of a transfer-free ride through Kennedy Station and a higher speed than light rail. A light rail replacement would offer the benefit of greater geographic coverage and better local walk access for twice as many residents and workers, and would cost less to build.

This seems to means that it is a toss up, both LRT and subway are equal. The last paragraph says

the Commission should avoid another prolonged debate over the future of the Scarborough RT, which might jeopardize Metrolinx’s commitment to fully rehabilitate and expand the deteriorating Scarborough RT

This seems to means that if you can get approval reasonably quickly, then subway is feasible.

In 2006 (before Transit City), the report concluded that Mark 2 is preferred, in 2009 (during Transit City), LRT was preferred, and in 2013 (after OneCity), subway and LRT are equal. It all depends on who commissions the study.

I am convinced that if Ford was TTC Chair, then the conclusion would have been that LRT connected to an underground ECLRT would be preferred.

 

[innsertnamehere]

Nothing serious for the SRT replacement starts to happen until next year, (beginning of the EA refreshment and station design, like what is happening now on the eglinton line) so as long as the depiction is made by the end of the year it shouldn't cause any delay of the START of construction. Completion might get set back simply because of longer construction times for a subway.

The start of this extension would also time perfectly with completion of tunnelling for the Spadina extension, the tunnel borers could just get moved over.

 

[nfitz]

But it was 'dismissed' based on design parameters that weren't needed (i.e. passing lanes would have made the ROW too wide, therefore BRT shouldn't be used).

And yet they documented that at the projected passenger load in that corridor, they'd have to run mixed express/local services, in order to carry the capacity. Simply because you don't need that to carry a similar amount of express passengers on a road in the middle of nowhere in Ottawa with little local demand in 2011 doesn't mean you can do that in 2031 on Sheppard.

I used to walk from Don Mills to Consumers every day, about 25 years ago. The congestion back then was surprising. I can't imagine how you'd take two car lanes out of service for BRT now. And I can't see how you'd actually get the express bus to pass the local bus at Yorkland without significantly slowing down and merging into gridlocked traffic.

 

[gweed123]

And yet they documented that at the projected passenger load in that corridor, they'd have to run mixed express/local services, in order to carry the capacity. Simply because you don't need that to carry a similar amount of express passengers on a road in the middle of nowhere in Ottawa with little local demand in 2011 doesn't mean you can do that in 2031 on Sheppard.

3,100 pphpd is 1 articulated bus every 2 minutes during peak period. You don't need express/local routes because of capacity. If anything, you would need it because of speed. If that's the case, why is it necessary for BRT but not for LRT? I'll say it again: the conditions that they set up for BRT are not realistic, nor are they needed. It was set up to be excluded. The technology choice was determined by the politicians before they even started writing the report. Same thing happened with most of Transit City, same thing happened with the original Sheppard Subway proposal, same thing happened with the Ottawa LRT. The report was written to fit the outcome that the politicians wanted. That meant setting up the other options to look not as good.

I used to walk from Don Mills to Consumers every day, about 25 years ago. The congestion back then was surprising. I can't imagine how you'd take two car lanes out of service for BRT now. And I can't see how you'd actually get the express bus to pass the local bus at Yorkland without significantly slowing down and merging into gridlocked traffic.

You wouldn't need to! I described earlier how it can be done operating in mixed traffic for the couple hundred metres over the 404. The right lane on the westbound side is a right-only lane, so it shouldn't be congested. You install signal priority at the Yorkland intersection to let the buses go before the general traffic. They go over the 404 in a general traffic lane, and then get back into a dedicated bus lane on the other side. There's no "taking two car lanes out of service". Similar setup for the eastbound side.

And you don't know that there's no local demand on Woodroffe. I can tell you, there is. In the AM peak, the stops at Knoxdale and Meadowlands are full with people waiting to get onto a 94 or 95 bus. They even have extra long shelters at both of those locations to handle the people. There's a reason why OC Transpo starts a 95X route at Baseline heading into downtown: because the 95 route that runs from anywhere south of there (some from Fallowfield, some from Barrhaven Centre) are full by the time they reach Baseline. That corridor carried more people yesterday than Sheppard East will in 2031, regardless of what technology is chosen. To call it "a road in the middle of nowhere" is extremely disingenuous. It's one of the busiest arterial roads in Nepean.

 

[nhui06]

My vote is still build a BRT (like VIVA up on Hwy7) and use the savings to extend the subway to Vic Park and Sheppard. This helps decrease the gridlock faced between Consumer and Hwy 404, and also serves the business park near Vic Park. Alternatively, use the savings to help build Sheppard West to Downsview. It is not about serving the community directly above the line, but about forming a northern subway bridge to connect between Spadina and Yonge line. Think how they are moving Spadina up to Vaughan. This Sheppard West extension will help link eastern Toronto to North West Toronto and Vaughan (like York University, Vaughan Mills, Canadas Wonderland etc).

 

[innsertnamehere]

To be honest I don't egret why they didn't extend the subway to consumers in the first place. I find it stupid that all the workers in that industrial area will now travel 1 stop on the LRT and have a transfer. Should have extended the subway 1 stop, to eliminate that transfer for them. The LRT will be going underground for that portion anyways, so why not just build it as subway? I know it was considered in the EA, I just think it was a stupid decision.

 

[Rainforest]

Unfortunately, hybrid options got ignored once again.

The subway can be extended to Agincourt GO, or at least to Warden. LRT or BRT can be built from that point to the end of Sheppard East. That would likely be cheaper than subway to STC, would serve the remote part of Sheppard East just as nicely as the pure LRT option, and provide more benefits from the network perspective.

If the network perspective was considered, then the subway option, and especially hybrid option, would get a higher rating. The peak ridership of the new section of Sheppard subway could be only 4,000 pphpd. But the ridership of the old section would increase, while the number of buses serving Finch and York Mills / Ellesmere could be reduced if some riders are redirected via the subway.

 

[BurlOak]

3,100 pphpd is 1 articulated bus every 2 minutes during peak period. You don't need express/local routes because of capacity. If anything, you would need it because of speed. If that's the case, why is it necessary for BRT but not for LRT? I'll say it again: the conditions that they set up for BRT are not realistic, nor are they needed. It was set up to be excluded. The technology choice was determined by the politicians before they even started writing the report. Same thing happened with most of Transit City , same thing happened with the original Sheppard Subway proposal, same thing happened with the Ottawa LRT. The report was written to fit the outcome that the politicians wanted. That meant setting up the other options to look not as good.

You are 100% correct.

Either conditions are set up to exclude a solution that does not fit the political direction, or the scoring and weightings are set to maximize the apparent benefits the politically preferred solution.

For Sheppard, the political direction was to stop the subway in its tracks so that they; can move on to other corridors and to ensure the existing portion remains an underused stub and tarnish the legacy of Lastman and the “right†for time to come.

For ECLRT, the answer was that; ECLRT elevated through Scarborough does not meet the project objectives and then it is ignored thereafter. The public did not get to comment on a true comparisson between subway, median-LRT, and elevated-LRT.

 

[CapitalSeven]

To be honest I don't egret why they didn't extend the subway to consumers in the first place. I find it stupid that all the workers in that industrial area will now travel 1 stop on the LRT and have a transfer. Should have extended the subway 1 stop, to eliminate that transfer for them. The LRT will be going underground for that portion anyways, so why not just build it as subway? I know it was considered in the EA, I just think it was a stupid decision.

I believe they studied that option, did the math, and concluded that it would actually inconvenience more riders than it would help. But I realize that the numbers in environmental assessments often seem cooked.

 

[nfitz]

For Sheppard, the political direction was to stop the subway in its tracks so that they; can move on to other corridors and to ensure the existing portion remains an underused stub and tarnish the legacy of Lastman and the “right†for time to come.

That's really bizarre paranoia. It's all about the legacy of Lastman? I don't think anyone really gives a toss about his legacy.

Surely it's merely that there is no where near the demand for subways, and that the subway costs 6 times more to build than LRT.

Even if we were building subways (and hopefully there are more built soon), why would one prioritize 4,500 riders per hour on Sheppard East over much higher numbers on Yonge north of Finch, or the DRL?

 

[innsertnamehere]

we are building subways.. (or at least one subway)

 

[nfitz]

we are building subways.. (or at least one subway)

I was thinking about subways after the Spadina extension. The period when the SRT construction would primarily be built is 2016 to 2020. The Spadina extension construction will be substantially complete in 2016.