[ehlow]

NYCC Station is a great example. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe it's the only "infill" station on the TTC thus far.

Perhaps the solution would be to do a Secondary Plan for the neighbourhood surrounding the future stations, so that development is coordinated. Ottawa is taking this approach for several of the new LRT stations: http://ottawa.ca/en/official-plan-0...plans/bayview-station-district-secondary-plan (Bayview just being one example, but I believe they are doing them for Hurdman, St. Laurent, Cyrville, and there was already ones underway for Tunney's and LeBreton).

That way, you can rezone properly in advance of the station being built, and guide redevelopment in a coordinated way instead of being ad hoc rezonings.

This is interesting:

When planning began to extend the Yonge Subway north of Eglinton Avenue, it was initially proposed to have the stations roughly 1 km apart from each other. In between the present day stops of Eglinton, Lawrence, York Mills, Sheppard and Finch, we would have had stops at Glencairn, Glen Echo/Yonge Boulevard, and Empress (no intermediate stop was planned between York Mills and Sheppard, so far as we know). However, with the extension's expenses increasing rapidly, a cost savings measure was adopted. The mid-block stations between the major arterial roads were dropped. Local service on Yonge Street would be provided by a supplementary bus service instead.

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5108.shtml

That's similar to what the Eglinton Connects planning study is for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT. It identifies areas where development should occur near the new transit line.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

How are you measuring "successful"? Based on walk-in traffic? Redevelopment? Passenger volumes?

Certainly from a feeder bus route point of view, Broadview, Pape, Coxwell and Main have high passenger volumes.

From a redevelopment point of view, the experience of the High Park area in the late 1960s kind of put a stop to wholesale demolition of streets of single family homes for high rises and has generally resulted in much of the Bloor-Danforth subway corridor remaining largely untouched.

Redevelopment. Second part.

 

[gweed123]

This is interesting:

http://transit.toronto.on.ca/subway/5108.shtml

That's similar to what the Eglinton Connects planning study is for the Eglinton Crosstown LRT. It identifies areas where development should occur near the new transit line.

Yup, I remember reading that. If I'm not mistaken they even left flat and straight sections of track at those mid block locations so that stations could be added later on. Hence NYCC Station.

And yes, the trend seems to be moving towards bundling in a Land Use Planning exercise in with Transit Planning, which is very much the way it should be. You want to encourage redevelopment and density, but you want to do it in a controlled way.

 

[ehlow]

Redevelopment. Second part.

I doubt the goal of creating the Bloor subway line was redevelopment or creating condo buildings when it was built 50 years ago.

It was built because the Bloor streetcar line was way too full and ridership was growing. Meaning, it was a subway to actually transport people, which to me should be the main goal of a transit line, not to spur redevelopment. And it moves > 500,000 trips a day, so to me it is a success.

 

[M II A II R II K]

You could refer to the Yonge part of the line as just the Yonge Line, and University for University, North West for the rest.

 

[gweed123]

I doubt the goal of creating the Bloor subway line was redevelopment or creating condo buildings when it was built 50 years ago.

It was built because the Bloor streetcar line was way too full and ridership was growing. Meaning, it was a subway to actually transport people, which to me should be the main goal of a transit line, not to spur redevelopment. And it moves > 500,000 trips a day, so to me it is a success.

Route alignment and technology selection should no doubt be based on travel patterns and demand on existing routes (like an overcrowded streetcar), but there is something to be said for looking at the transportation-land use relationship with respect to that line.

Sure there are examples, like Vaughan Metro Centre for example, where the "build it to spur development" is taken to an extreme, but in a lot of cases it's more of a "we're putting the line here anyway, might as well maximize the land use potential around it". As long as the Land Use cart isn't put before the Transportation horse, I think looking at both aspects is a great thing.

 

[ehlow]

Route alignment and technology selection should no doubt be based on travel patterns and demand on existing routes (like an overcrowded streetcar), but there is something to be said for looking at the transportation-land use relationship with respect to that line.

Sure there are examples, like Vaughan Metro Centre for example, where the "build it to spur development" is taken to an extreme, but in a lot of cases it's more of a "we're putting the line here anyway, might as well maximize the land use potential around it". As long as the Land Use cart isn't put before the Transportation horse, I think looking at both aspects is a great thing.

Sure, but to say the Bloor-Danforth subway is a failure because there wasn't a massive amount of redevelopment on many parts of it is ridiculous considering it carries 500K trips a day.

 

[diminutive]

Good point. Blythwood would in essence extend the Yonge-Eglinton cluster further north, much in the way that Rosedale does for Yorkville.

In most cases, these kinds of in-between neighbourhoods could be better served by rejigging some local bus routes. Blythwood/Glencairn for instance could be served by keeping the Glencairn bus on Glencairn past Bathurst until Duplex, then having it go into Eglinton station.

That would be way more useful than anything. Combined with some modest redevelopment along Duplex and Glencairn, it could be a modestly successful route.

 

[gweed123]

Sure, but to say the Bloor-Danforth subway is a failure because there wasn't a massive amount of redevelopment on many parts of it is ridiculous considering it carries 500K trips a day.

Oh for sure, it wasn't me that claimed that, haha. It definitely is a success by international standards and even by Toronto standards (which is generally a higher threshold when it comes to determining if an RT line is "successful" or not).

But to be fair, you have to wonder how much more successful it could be if more redevelopment was allowed along Bloor. It would be interesting to see a study of that actually. The type of redevelopment I'd like to see along Bloor is 2-3 storey right along Bloor, with condos in behind.

In most cases, these kinds of in-between neighbourhoods could be better served by rejigging some local bus routes. Blythwood/Glencairn for instance could be served by keeping the Glencairn bus on Glencairn past Bathurst until Duplex, then having it go into Eglinton station.

That would be way more useful than anything. Combined with some modest redevelopment along Duplex and Glencairn, it could be a modestly successful route.

That could certainly work, but from a real estate point of view it wouldn't be a very big selling point. Subway access on the other hand is. It's also a boost for businesses along the route. No doubt that adding in a station comes with some pretty hefty costs attached to it, but if it's integrated into a new development it should be something that's at least considered, even if the development is the byproduct of choosing to build the station.

 

[ehlow]

Oh for sure, it wasn't me that claimed that, haha. It definitely is a success by international standards and even by Toronto standards (which is generally a higher threshold when it comes to determining if an RT line is "successful" or not).

But to be fair, you have to wonder how much more successful it could be if more redevelopment was allowed along Bloor. It would be interesting to see a study of that actually. The type of redevelopment I'd like to see along Bloor is 2-3 storey right along Bloor, with condos in behind.

Yeah I know

I think midrise development is happening and will continue to happen along Bloor. The main area that was developed on Bloor was the High Park area (lots of slab apartments similar to Yonge-Eg), but there are lots of newer 10 story condos along Bloor West.

I think it will definitely happen on the Danforth as well, although probably further east where there are parking lots & big box stores.

What's amazing is even the Allen Rd part of the University-Spadina line is starting to be developed even with highways and a giant mall with large parking lots taking up space. I saw tons of condos under construction near Wilson station.

 

[AlbertHWagstaff]

That would be way more useful than anything. Combined with some modest redevelopment along Duplex and Glencairn, it could be a modestly successful route.

Redevelopment in established low-rise family homes is a non-starter. I think even the Official Plan calling for redevelopment on the Avenues says that the low-rise residential areas are not candidates for intensification. So the low-rise areas around the Bloor-Danforth aren't going anywhere, but commercial buildings on Bloor and Danforth could be replaced with mid-rise development, especially where there are gaps like used car lots and former industrial sites. I think people are very protective of the two-three storey commercial strips where a neighbourhood is established, look at the battle over the Lick's site on Queen East. Given time, the old buildings will be replaced as they decrepitate, but it will take time. In any case, this wouldn't have a huge impact on subway ridership on the Bloor-Danforth line the way that a DRL-Don Mills line would. The same would apply to the middle of the Spadina line between St. Clair West and Yorkdale. Intensification in targeted locations will help ridership.

It's likely that if the Spadina line had moved over to Bathurst / Christie south of Eglinton as Toronto and York councillors wanted, the line would probably very much resemble the Bloor-Danforth line.

 

[Johnny Au]

In most cases, these kinds of in-between neighbourhoods could be better served by rejigging some local bus routes. Blythwood/Glencairn for instance could be served by keeping the Glencairn bus on Glencairn past Bathurst until Duplex, then having it go into Eglinton station.

That would be way more useful than anything. Combined with some modest redevelopment along Duplex and Glencairn, it could be a modestly successful route.

Likewise, there can be a branch of the 124 Sunnybrook going along Blythwood between Blythwood station and Sunnybrook.

 

[denfromoakvillemilton]

How expensive cna it be to relocate the spadina line under dufferin today?

 

[sixrings]

How expensive cna it be to relocate the spadina line under dufferin today?

Very expensive. At that point you might as well make the DRL go up dufferin all the way to Wilson. It doesn't make sense because it's so close to the Spadina line but it does make sense that dufferin bus is crazy busy.

 

[ksun]

You could refer to the Yonge part of the line as just the Yonge Line, and University for University, North West for the rest.

there is only 4 stops on University.