[Urban Sky]

Unfortunately in French, but quite detailed and highly informative:
VIA Rail: Siemens avait une longueur d'avance sur Bombardier

 

[steveintoronto]

I mean, I can see that you're passionate about this particular train, but to me, it still looks pretty awful, low-tech, and clunky. I think that the typical VIA rail passenger would take one look at that locomotive from the outside as it rolled into their station and be hard pressed to even notice that VIA had upgraded their trains.

I'm not passionate about the looks at all. And that's exactly the point. Barely any of the public are either. It could Thomas the Tank Engine, and as long as passengers were delivered on time, in comfort, for a reasonable cost, and safely, they wouldn't give a toss.

Some of the best trains in the world are led by locos as ugly as sin. It's some of the posters who have a misplaced romantic ideal of what a loco should look like that are "passionate".

It's the function that impresses me, not the looks. Like a lot of things in life. And again, as I've posted, nations generations ahead of us in rail efficiency and acumen run passenger services a lot more noted than VIA with *predecessors* of this design family, and at a hell of a lot higher speed.

Let's flip this over since you and others refuse to research this, and links have been supplied prior.

Show a competitor that entered the bidding with a loco that fits your fancy...

Here's the list:
CANADA's national passenger rail operator Via Rail announced on June 18 that Bombardier Transportation Canada, Siemens Canada, Stadler US and Talgo have been shortlisted to participate in the Request for Proposals (RFP) to manufacture a new fleet of inter-city trains for the Quebec City - Windsor Corridor.

Feel absolutely free to post the 'locomotive of your dreams'...

it still looks pretty awful, low-tech, and clunky

Then that says more about you than the device itself. The Charger is a magnificent result of generations of development, and the first US built diesel loco to meet Tier IV specs, let alone many other state-of-the-art developments.

And so far it's proving its claims...another very important part of the selection process.

 

[steveintoronto]

@Urban Sky had just posted a link in French, here it is translated: (translation is not precise, interpret accordingly)

Publié le 28 novembre 2018 à 10h54

| Mis à jour le 28 novembre 2018 à 10h54

VIA Rail: Siemens was a step ahead of Bombardier

JEAN-FRANÇOIS CODÈRE
The Press

Despite very high costs in California, Siemens was in a good position to cap Bombardier in the context of VIA Rail's call for tenders for 32 trains launched in the spring, thanks in part to the experience acquired with US contracts. .

The press reported yesterday that VIA Rail had preferred Siemens' proposal to Bombardier's proposal for this estimated $ 1 billion contract. The trains would be assembled in Sacramento, California, rather than La Pocatière. The contract is not yet signed.
It is not the operating costs of the two facilities that would be involved. Unlike their Indian or Chinese colleagues, Siemens employees in California have nothing to envy to those in La Pocatière in terms of working conditions. On the contrary, the difficulties in recruiting enough employees and very strict regulations push costs up.
Siemens' advantage lies in the fact that its Sacramento plant is already producing locomotives and cars very similar to those offered to VIA Rail.

​

Thus, the German company would be able to eliminate or significantly reduce the costs related to the development of the platform and the implementation of production, which constitute a very important part of the rail equipment contracts.
Siemens won a contract in March 2014 for the construction of 32 Charger locomotives with the states of California, Illinois, Michigan, Missouri and Washington. Most importantly, this contract included options for 225 additional locomotives. Several of them have been exercised, it has been noted, so that their construction is going on at the Sacramento plant.
In return, the La Pocatière plant did not produce intercity trains several years ago.Locomotives already produced by Bombardier and most likely to be reused for the VIA Rail contract are built in Plattsburgh.
Bombardier also has a mature platform whose initial costs are amortized, that of multilevel cars assembled in Thunder Bay, Ontario. But certain conditions of the VIA Rail tender, whose current fleet consists of single-level cars, would have made it difficult to offer multi-level cars.
INTERNATIONAL TREATIES
The President of the Federation of Manufacturing Industry (FIM-CSN), Louis Bégin, yesterday wondered about the application of free trade agreements by different governments.
"There is a flagrant lack of transparency in the application of free trade agreements and local content requirements," he said. From one tender to another, from one crown corporation to another, we are told 0%, 15%, 25% of national production. And today, we learn that VIA Rail, a Crown corporation, would have remained "cautious" by not requiring any production in Quebec, while Bombardier Transportation in La Pocatière is fully able to build these trains?It's total nonsense! "
At least two international agreements signed by Canada prevented VIA Rail from including a threshold of local content in its call for tenders, it was also noted.
First, the World Trade Organization (WTO) Agreement on Government Procurement (GPA) includes VIA Rail verbatim from a list of federal organizations that are prohibited from doing so.
Canada has included two exceptions in this agreement, one of which includes "urban rail and urban transit equipment, systems, components and materials used in their manufacture, and all iron and steel equipment. steel for these projects ".
It is understood that the VIA Rail order involves "intercity" rather than "urban" transportation equipment.
The recently negotiated United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement refers to the provisions of the GPA with respect to government procurement.
The recent Canada-Europe Free Trade Agreement (Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement, CETA) also comes into play, especially since Bombardier's main rivals in this competition, including Siemens, are European.
CETA also prohibits Crown corporations, whether federal or provincial, from including local content thresholds. It provides for an exemption giving Quebec and Ontario the right to set a 25% threshold for the purchase of public transit vehicles, but this does not apply to VIA Rail, a federal corporation.
- With The Canadian Press

https://translate.google.ca/transla...ngueur-davance-sur-bombardier.php&prev=search

 

[kEiThZ]

I mean, I can see that you're passionate about this particular train, but to me, it still looks pretty awful, low-tech, and clunky. I think that the typical VIA rail passenger would take one look at that locomotive from the outside as it rolled into their station and be hard pressed to even notice that VIA had upgraded their trains.

Like I said earlier, the interior matters far more. That's when they'll notice.

And if the outside looks good, but the interior is sparse, they still won't really see it as an upgrade.

 

[JasonParis]

Every time someone mentions ViaRail or I see their logo, the immediate image that gets conjured up in my mind are the F40 locomotives which in essence are a variation of slow heavy freight locomotives used in North America. I'm just hoping that they at least update or create a brand new livery for the consists and engines, something that is modern and not stuck in the early 2000s.

VIA's logo is perfection. What ruins it is the Canada wordmark underneath it, avec "Rail Canda" and the odd leaf. Don't get me wrong, the wordmark is perfection too, but the two should not go together and didn't use to.

 

[robmausser]

@Urban Sky had just posted a link in French, here it is translated: (translation is not precise, interpret accordingly)


https://translate.google.ca/transla...ngueur-davance-sur-bombardier.php&prev=search

Basically Bombardier doesnt really have what VIA wants ready to go like Seimens does. It costs money to make something specific and start up production from scratch, Bombardier simply cant compete when Seimens is already churning out a product that fits VIA's needs.

 

[robmausser]

lol...the average person couldn't even tell you what colours VIA use, let alone the state of their loco fleet,

Modern High Speed Trains trains aren't diesel...

You just contradicted yourself.

People cant tell you what colours VIA use, but they would be able to tell you that a high speed train isnt diesel?

None of this matters. To the public, sleek nose = modern train.

Thats all that matters.

 

[Urban Sky]

You just contradicted yourself.

Context matters:

It might not matter to you, but a nose cone vs no nose cone can make or break the difference between people thinking they are getting modern high speed trains vs antiquated equipment.

Modern High Speed Trains trains aren't diesel...

He's not contradicting himself, he's simply pointing out the discrepency between what passengers are getting (modern intercity rail equipment) and what you seem to want them to believe they are getting (sleek bullet trains like in Germany, France, Italy, Japan or Spain)...

 

[steveintoronto]

Context matters:


He's not contradicting himself, he's simply pointing out the discrepency between what passengers are getting (modern intercity rail equipment) and what you seem to want them to believe they are getting (sleek bullet trains like in Germany, France, Italy, Japan or Spain)...

I keep inviting the doubters to post a pic of any of the RFP selected winners. Not one of them has. Because rightly so, none of them has a bullet cowl. None of the regional expresses in the US does, let alone Class 6 track carriers.

And anyone thinking they're getting HSR is sorely misdirected. It's not even HFR. It's "Corridor Fleet Renewal" folks!

To the public, sleek nose = modern train.

I guess they'll have to turn down their next airline flight, because the aircraft doesn't have a needle nose like the Concorde.

 

[micheal_can]

I

I guess they'll have to turn down their next airline flight, because the aircraft doesn't have a needle nose like the Concorde.

If they brought out a new supersonic ject that did not have one, people would think it isn't a supersonic jet.

People are stupid.

Nose cones automatically equal high speed.

 

[felix123]

I'm not passionate about the looks at all. And that's exactly the point. Barely any of the public are either. It could Thomas the Tank Engine, and as long as passengers were delivered on time, in comfort, for a reasonable cost, and safely, they wouldn't give a toss.

Some of the best trains in the world are led by locos as ugly as sin. It's some of the posters who have a misplaced romantic ideal of what a loco should look like that are "passionate".

It's the function that impresses me, not the looks. Like a lot of things in life. And again, as I've posted, nations generations ahead of us in rail efficiency and acumen run passenger services a lot more noted than VIA with *predecessors* of this design family, and at a hell of a lot higher speed.

Let's flip this over since you and others refuse to research this, and links have been supplied prior.

Show a competitor that entered the bidding with a loco that fits your fancy...

Here's the list:
CANADA's national passenger rail operator Via Rail announced on June 18 that Bombardier Transportation Canada, Siemens Canada, Stadler US and Talgo have been shortlisted to participate in the Request for Proposals (RFP) to manufacture a new fleet of inter-city trains for the Quebec City - Windsor Corridor.

Feel absolutely free to post the 'locomotive of your dreams'...
Then that says more about you than the device itself. The Charger is a magnificent result of generations of development, and the first US built diesel loco to meet Tier IV specs, let alone many other state-of-the-art developments.

And so far it's proving its claims...another very important part of the selection process.

I still think the public does generally know what a modern train looks like, and will not consider the charger as such. That's really all.
That said, do you always freak out this much when someone's opinion differs from yours?

 

[steveintoronto]

I still think the public does generally know what a modern train looks like, and will not consider the charger as such. That's really all.
That said, do you always freak out this much when someone's opinion differs from yours?

lol...You have one case that might make your point: Brightline. Who else? "Freak out"...I think you'd best check the 'likes'.

So what other locos were available for the RFP that had the 'nose of champions?' And where exactly will the obligatory snow plow blades go on it?

 

[cplchanb]

apart from the whole thing on the loco, what does siemens have for the coaches and potential cab car? will it be a la brightline?

 

[gweed123]

lol...You have one case that might make your point: Brightline. Who else?

Every other high speed train around the world, pretty much. While Brightline doesn't mean the technical definition of HSR, the look of the locomotive certainly suggests that the train is meant to go fast.

I fall on the pro-cone side of this. Do a few TV or print ads with a picture of a Brightline-esque locomotive, and I can guarantee the reaction of a lot of people will be "Oh, Via got faster trains. I may take a look (or another look) at them now."

Perception is a big part of this, and I think a train that looks like it can go fast is an important way to get people in the proverbial door when it comes to considering Via as an option.

 

[kEiThZ]

I still think the public does generally know what a modern train looks like, and will not consider the charger as such. That's really all.

1) VIA's corridor ridership has been going up the last few years. And that's with the locos most would consider unattractive. And coaches in poor conditions and rough riding.

2) People all over the world have no issues riding trains that don't have bullet noses on them.

This is why I keep saying, the rounded nose is a nice to have. Not a must have. It's a bonus for the marketing brochure.

Here's a simple thought exercise. VIA gets HFR funding. Builds nice, beautiful modern suburban stations with decent lounges, car rental agency on site, a proper restaurant. Like stations you see in Europe. And offers hourly service with a 3 hr trip to Ottawa and 4 hr trip to Montreal. Are you suggesting ridership won't go up because those trains won't have nose cones? I hope you realize how absurd that proposition is.

This is why I say the interior, the service concept and the station designs matter far more.