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Once the HFR is built, what will happen to existing Corridor service?

Service will continue and increase on the existing corridor, but I would expect most trains to be all-stop and alternate-stop, with the truly express no stop services being on the new HFR line.

The exsiting corridor has many medium sized towns along it where stopping makes sense. The HFR route is more barren.
 
^ Odd how Bombardier can 'buy' European expertise (Adtranz et al) sell in the European market, headquarter the cash in Montreal, and then want our dinner too, because, ya know, those damn greedy Americans and Europeans. It's our *Precioussssss* And we wants it all...

Too bad about the CSeries n' all....https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-...s-a220-rebranding-bombardier-cseries-airliner

I think it should be called...errr...The Karma! (Apologies to The 'Komet')
 
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Be aware that railways, under the Transportation and other Acts, if federally regulated, (most provinces have equivalent powers for provincially regulated ones) have extraordinary powers of expropriation via federal regulators and precedence over provincial powers:

https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-10.4/page-14.html

In the case of HFR as planned and projected, that power shouldn't be needed, as no private property will be affected; When the line was abandoned, provincial protections were already extant to deny building permits on the RoW of this and many other RoWs, many or most of which are now or able to become trails and/or future transportation and/or communications/utility corridors.

Some other points to consider under the Transportation Act: (Note: The federal websites posting the various railway acts are difficult to navigate right now, and whole sections are unavailable.)https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-10.4/page-16.html#docCont

Note: [ 96 (1) Where a railway company took possession of, used or occupied land under section 134 of the Railway Act before the coming into force of section 185 ]
  • This was the case for the Ontario and Quebec Railway incorporated in 1871. (edit: Chartered 1881)
  • Not the reference I was looking for, but effectively the same implication:
  • [ the railway company may not alienate the land except to transfer it to a railway company for the purpose of continuing railway operations or to the Crown. ]
Edit to Add: For those interested:
can be downloaded here:
https://ia600206.us.archive.org/0/items/cu31924016968178/cu31924016968178.pdf


Perhaps. I'm not as familiar with the legislation as you, nor invested enough in the topic to become so, so am in your hands. I suppose that the more expropriations required, the greater the cost. Additionally, if it turn out that the hearts of the settlements along the way will be torn out to accommodate, local enthusiasm and support might go with it. This is a screen grab of a piece of Sharbot Lake. Resolution isn't that great but the building is their medical centre right on the ROW. Perhaps it is a lease that is allowed to exist 'at pleasure' - I don't know.

1545172835900.png
 
Another reason why electrification is likely considered to be so cheap. It's a long distance to electrify, sure, but it's mostly single track and only needs to service very low electrical loads (one 3-4 car train every hour). This means transformers can be placed very far apart and most costs are probably going to just be the stringing of the wire.

There's also a factor rarely mentioned in the HFR dialog, but is alive in the power grid circles: That corridor can also host a new connector for Ontario pwr xmssn, perhaps even Ontario's first UHV DC one?

Ontario-Québec Interconnection Capability - IESO
http://www.ieso.ca/-/media/Files/IE...data/supply/IntertieReport-20170508.pdf?la=en

All the more reason for a utility like Hydro-Quebec (Hydro-Québec is the fourth largest hydropower producer in the world.) to join or participate in a Consortium on this.

It might be the case that the catenary supply is not 'dedicated' in the normal fashion, but sourced at intervals along the distance. The source impedance of the local grid would be far lower than using a dedicated feed.
 
Additionally, if it turn out that the hearts of the settlements along the way will be torn out to accommodate, local enthusiasm and support might go with it.
It already is. Every county it passes through. Already detailed in this string.

Even mayors and councils of cities it by-passes:
https://www.thewhig.com/2017/08/09/...sion/wcm/3d3584fe-4cd5-ba4a-6940-9463f1db7114
[...]
Last month, an almost identical resolution from the Eastern Ontario Wardens’ Caucus (EOWC) was endorsed by Frontenac County council.

In Frontenac County’s case, the proposed new rail line would pass through Central Frontenac Township. A map provided by the company shows the rail line passing through Sharbot Lake but a company spokesperson has said the line’s precise route, and where the stations will be, has not been formalized.

One of the options being looked at for passenger service from Toronto to Ottawa is through Smiths Falls using existing or discontinued railroad rights of way. [...]
url above
https://slchamber.ca/wp-content/upl...tion-on-VIA-Rail-HFR-Project-June-23-2017.pdf
This is a screen grab of a piece of Sharbot Lake. Resolution isn't that great but the building is their medical centre right on the ROW. Perhaps it is a lease that is allowed to exist 'at pleasure' - I don't know.

Well here's a street view, and the embankment is still extant, behind the building:
https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Sh...0cea730ce9361f!8m2!3d44.7679293!4d-76.6907119

The RoW is in front of the building, the Trail serving also as a local road. There is no building "on the RoW".
 
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We'll see how the support stands up when the devil reveals the details to the voters. Whether or not that building is actually on the ROW may be debatable, but they may have to put crossing arms on the front door. The hump behind the building is the former K & P ROW.
 
I think a lot of misunderstanding revolves around the legal device known as an "easement".

US Law is almost a carbon copy twin, save that Canada's laws on this are even more enforceable (usually...CPR and O&Q v share/bondholders being a case still in dispute, even after an SCC decision) and thus as quoted in the Railway Act a few posts back, the RoW in the case of O&Q reverts to (gist) 'The Crown or another railway using the Row'. As to how and why CPR (CP Ltd in this instance) dumped the O&Q RoW is something to delve on. They couldn't have sold it under the Act it was chartered under, it must have been to 'cut dead weight and costs' that they did it. The CTA would have been on them to either bring it up to standard, or abandon it. I'm just projecting on that, still digging.

Meantime, in the US:
Refer: https://www.railstotrails.org/resourcehandler.ashx?id=3768

And then consider: (From Trains magazine)
Railroads in most cases do not own the land outright?
[...]
Posted by BlakeTyner on Thursday, March 22, 2007 2:50 PM
In a lot of cases, that's true; the railroad does not hold the title for the land. In the case of a railroad, in the US, we're generally talking about an "easement in gross" (as opposed to an easement appurtenant.) An easement in gross is one that is attached to a person or entity, in our case, the railroad company, instead of some particular patch of real estate. For railroads, this easement is commercial.
Although the railroad may not hold actual title of the land, it is considered to be private property by both the RR and the state. They have the right to post it, patrol it, use it for whatever purpose the easement grants, including building and maintaining the infrastructure. They can prosecute you as a tresspassor, because the easement applies to them, not you.
As far as re-negotiating, easement rights are alienable, or transferrable.
Sometimes it becomes neccessary to re-negotiate, such as when the term of use expires.
In the case of my railroad, we own the vast majority of our land outright. However, there is one section that is on another person's property. When the railroad was built, the original owner of that property granted the easement to build and operate a railroad on his land. We have a swath, about 10 feet wide. If we need to do tie repair or anything, we do not need his permission to do so. If we see a random person walking the tracks along our easement, we prosecute them for tresspassing. Likewise, if our neighbor dismantled any of our track, or cut a tree down over it, we could prosecute him. He can be on our easement (which he technically owns) so long as he doesn't pose a danger to our operation. He cannot plant trees, crops, or build fences in it, though. He can move animals and equipment over our easement to get to the rest of his property, so long as it's done safely and does not interfere with our operation.
Both the railroad and that private property have changed owners a number of times, but the easement remains (for another 17 years) regardless. The only requirement is that the railroad operate a revenue train over the easement at least once every 6 months. That is specific to our contract, but shows that conditions may be applied. When the current owner of that property bought the land, the easement came with it. Likewise, when my bosses bought the railroad, they got the 20 years remaining on the easement.
Power line rights-of-way work in much the same way. In whatever county one is in, an easement document is on file at the courthouse that expressly gives the easement holder rights. Where there is a power line, the company generally has a pretty wide swath, say 200 feet, of right-of-way. The actual property owner has access to his property, but (like above) cannot interfere with the safe operation of the electrical company; he can't plant trees and such. Most of the TVA's easements are actually in the name of the United States and are entrusted to the TVA, but the premise remains the same.
The easiest way to think of it is this: while someone might hold the deed to a tract of land, if an easement is granted, the easement-holder effectively controls the swath granted in the easement.
Of course, the usual internet rules apply here; I am not a lawyer or real estate expert. The above is my understanding and should not be taken as anything other than opinion.

Blake Harris
[...]
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/91381.aspx

It's an excellent forum conversation with some posters adding well informed legalese on the subject.
 
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On Cdn Law and Easements as that pertains to Railways:
Easements: more than meets the eye
Posted April 23, 2018 by LAWPRO
Non-use of an easement does not lead to abandonment or extinguishment

The recent Court of Appeal decision in Remicorp Industries Inc. v. Metrolinx makes it clear that non-use or the lack of need for an easement is insufficient for that easement to be abandoned or extinguished at law. A solicitor should advise their client of registered easements, even if they do not appear to be in use, and in so doing, can prevent later headache and expense.

At issue in this case was a property in Toronto that was sold in 2002 by the Canadian National Railway Company (CN) to Remicorp Industries, a concrete manufacturing company. The transfer from CN reserved two easements, for maintenance and access, over two different parts of the property. The easements were for use by vehicles and equipment in conjunction with the abutting lands and tracks owned by CN. The maintenance easement was not at issue in the case; the access easement was the easement under dispute.

In 2003, the parties entered into an Easement Agreement whereby CN could, at its option, request Remicorp obtain consent from the Committee of Adjustment to grant CN an alternate access easement over a different part of the property. In effect, the access easement would be relocated, and CN would release the original access easement. Ultimately, CN never exercised the option, and neither used the access easement nor released it. Notwithstanding CN’s right to the access easement, Remicorp built several structures on the part of its land that was subject to the access easement, including a sheet metal wall, a shed and concrete troughs.

In 2010, CN transferred its interest in the rail corridor lands to Metrolinx, an agency of the Government of Ontario, and the operator of the GO Train network and the Union Pearson Express. The transfer to Metrolinx included CN’s rights to both easements. While Metrolinx used the maintenance easement, it too never used the access easement, nor did it exercise its option to have the access easement relocated.

As Metrolinx’s use of the railway corridor intensified, the parties had unsuccessful discussions about the sale of Remicorp’s property to Metrolinx. Remicorp sought a declaration from the Superior Court of Justice that the access easement was abandoned and extinguished, or in the alternative, to relocate the access easement pursuant to the 2003 Easement Agreement. The applications judge ordered the easement to be relocated. On appeal, the Court of Appeal reversed the decision and restored the original access easement.

The Court of Appeal reasoned that an easement can be abandoned if expressly or impliedly released (that is, non-use coupled with an intention to abandon). Neither CN nor Metrolinx had released the easement. In citing its own 1927 decision in Liscombe v. Maughan, the Court of Appeal stated that non-use, on its own, is insufficient to conclude that an easement has been abandoned. The Court further cited the 2009 decision of the Superior Court in 2108133 Ontario Inc. v. Kabcan Foods Ltd., and held that CN had not knowingly, and with full appreciation of its rights, determined that it should abandon the access easement.

The Court of Appeal held that the applications judge erred in finding that the access easement was extinguished by operation of law because even if Metrolinx did not use or need the easement, the purpose for which it was created had not come to an end. Citing the 2006 Superior Court decision in Fyfe v. James, the Court of Appeal reasoned that although relocating the access easement would achieve a similar result, neither CN nor Metrolinx exercised their option under the Easement Agreement, and the grant of the access easement in the 2002 deed did not contemplate it being extinguished by alternative access or a time limit.

In citing its 1926 decision in Re Ontario Lime Co. Ltd., the court stated that the judiciary should exercise its discretion to discharge or modify conditions or covenants, including easements, with the greatest caution. The Court of Appeal found that in ordering the access easement relocated pursuant to the 2003 Easement Agreement, the applications judge erred by effectively exercising Metrolinx’s option without consideration or compensation.

The Court of Appeal reiterated the notion of easements as being “actually or potentially valuable rights.”(Gale on Easements, 20th ed. (London: Thomson Reuters (Professional) UK Limited, 2017) at para. 12-26.) The court ordered Remicorp to remove the encroachments on the easement within six months, and awarded costs to Meterolinx.

This decision demonstrates that real estate lawyers who find easements noted on title should advise their clients about them, and requisition their removal if the client so instructs. This is true even if the easements appear disused, or the use of the property has changed over time. Although the Remicorp decision dealt with commercial property, its rationale applies equally to residential properties, farms and vacant land. As the old adage goes, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

By Leo Law, TitlePLUS Underwriting Counsel

https://avoidaclaim.com/2018/easements-more-than-meets-the-eye/
 
but they may have to put crossing arms on the front door.
The Laws of the Land will still prevail, and speed limits, just like being located on a highway, pertain under various railway acts. In the event, VIA has stated that (gist) "The actual location of the track and station are yet to be decided".

Under the terms of the various Acts, and as indicated in court decisions on 'transferring easements' ...for some odd reason, I think an accommodation will be reached.

At the very least:
Canada Transportation Act
S.C. 1996, c. 10
[…]
Railway Lines
Marginal note:No construction without Agency approval

98 (1) A railway company shall not construct a railway line without the approval of the Agency.
[…]
Marginal note:Exception

(3) No approval is needed for the construction of a railway line

(a) within the right of way of an existing railway line; or

(b) within 100 m of the centre line of an existing railway line for a distance of no more than 3 km.
[…]

And to put things into context:
https://kickandpushca.wordpress.com/history-2/
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/rer/20170308_Scarborough-Markham_Presentation_EN.pdf

The hump behind the building is the former K & P ROW.
Not from the history I'm reading. The K&P didn't branch off for Pembroke until north of the station:
History
Two Railroads

Before the coming of the railway, roads were difficult or non-existent.
The Kingston and Pembroke Railway crossed Sharbot Lake on a rock-filled causeway, May 8, 1876. The Canadian Pacific Railway from Ottawa to Toronto arrived May 5th, 1884. Traveling through the village, these two railways shared the same rail bed and station. [...]
1545183014555.png
https://kickandpushca.wordpress.com/history-2/

Almost exactly where the Family Health Team is now. Maybe they'll get a bigger better building out of the deal, and the present one becomes the new station? Progress can work for everyone willing...

And now for something completely different:
https://www.highspeedrailcanada.com/2017/02/via-rail-sharbot-lake-challenges.html
Monty Python visits Paul Langan and discusses the state of being...
 
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Railways are quite careful at how they dispose of abandoned rail lines, taking care to not dispose of land in a way that would allow anyone to reassemble the line and operate a competing railroad. That may include retaining parts of it - an example being the little bits of Metrolinx row’s that CN retained; another being the Canada Southern line where selective bits were retained (but not used) in Windsor, St Thomas and Niagara but the stretches in between were sold off.
Ironically, a railroad may retain abandoned lines not to use them some day, but to ensure they remain abandoned.

The issue for VIA is not its ability to take title to the land, but whether they create resistance when they do so. See the Crosstown and Davenport threads for examples of this.

- Paul
 
I could see VIA simply expropriating land to go around the towns. Think about it, the towns keep their trails and any buildings that are too close to the ROW.
 
Railways are quite careful at how they dispose of abandoned rail lines, taking care to not dispose of land in a way that would allow anyone to reassemble the line and operate a competing railroad.
Under the Railway Act under which the O&Q was chartered, it went back to the Crown.
Ironically, a railroad may retain abandoned lines not to use them some day, but to ensure they remain abandoned.
Transportation Act:
RAIL LINES: CURRENT CONVEYANCE
AND ABANDONMENT PROCEDURES AND
REPLACEMENT PROPOSALS IN BILL C-101

Prepared by:
David Johansen
Law and Government Division
September 1995
A. Conveyance Procedure

The National Transportation Act, 1987 currently permits a railway company within federal jurisdiction (e.g., CN or CP) to enter into an agreement with any other company to sell, lease or otherwise convey a line of railway without this being considered an abandonment of the operation of the line. The agreement is, however, subject to the approval of the National Transportation Agency. When a railway company enters into such an agreement, it must give written notice to the Agency that it has done so and give such public notice as the Agency may direct.

In accordance with the National Transportation Agency General Rules, the public notice invites interested parties to present their views to the Agency on the proposed conveyance no later than 30 days from the date of the notice and allows the applicant 10 days to respond to the matters raised by the public. Upon request or by its own motion, the Agency may shorten or lengthen this time frame as it deems appropriate.

The Act requires that within six months of receipt of the notice of the conveyance agreement, the Agency must, after holding any public hearings it decides are necessary, approve the conveyance agreement unless it has determined that this would not be in the public interest or that the company to which the line is to be conveyed is not authorized to operate it.

Aspects of public interest raised by the public and considered by the agency in respect of conveyance applications include the financial stability and operational viability of the acquiring carrier and the extent to which the latter will be able to continue to provide the same or an improved level of service to existing and potential shippers.

Once the Agency approval is granted, where the line is conveyed from one railway company to another, the conveying company has no further obligations under the National Transportation Act, 1987 with respect to the operation of the line. If the acquiring company falls under federal legislative authority, it is deemed to assume all such obligations or obligations under any other federal legislation governing the operation of the line.

If, at the time of conveyance, there is any agreement between the conveying railroad and VIA Rail with respect to the operation of a rail passenger service on that line or a segment of it, the rights and obligations held by the conveying railroad pass to the acquiring company, as amended by an agreement between it and VIA Rail. The line or segment is then declared to be a work for the general advantage of Canada until it is abandoned or until the passenger service on the conveyed portion of the line is discontinued.

Where the acquiring railway company does not fall under federal legislative authority and there has been no agreement between the conveying company and VIA Rail with respect to passenger service, the line ceases to be a work for the general advantage of Canada.


B. Abandonment Procedure
Prior to 1 January 1993, a railway company under federal jurisdiction was not permitted to abandon more than 4% of its total trackage in any calendar year. The current rail line abandonment procedure under the National Transportation Act, 1987 and the accompanying Railway Lines Abandonment Regulations come into play when a railway company under federal legislative authority wishes to abandon the operations of the whole or a portion of a railway line. To do so, it must obtain the authorization of the National Transportation Agency, first giving at least 90 days’ notice to both the Agency and those parties prescribed by regulation. The Railway Lines Abandonment Regulations require the railway company to publish the notice in the newspaper with the largest circulation in each area served by the line and to distribute it to affected or interested parties.
[...]
http://publications.gc.ca/Collection-R/LoPBdP/BP/bp403-e.htm
[...]
Canada Transportation Act (S.C. 1996, c. 10)
[…]
Running Rights and Joint Track Usage
Marginal note:Application by railway company

138 (1) A railway company may apply to the Agency for the right to

(a) take possession of, use or occupy any land belonging to any other railway company;

(b) use the whole or any portion of the right-of-way, tracks, terminals, stations or station grounds of any other railway company; and

(c) run and operate its trains over and on any portion of the railway of any other railway company.
Marginal note:Application may be granted

(2) The Agency may grant the right and may make any order and impose any conditions on either railway company respecting the exercise or restriction of the rights as appear just or desirable to the Agency, having regard to the public interest.
Marginal note:Compensation

(3) The railway company shall pay compensation to the other railway company for the right granted and, if they do not agree on the compensation, the Agency may, by order, fix the amount to be paid.

Marginal note:Request for joint or common use of right-of-way

139 (1) The Governor in Council may

(a) on the application of a railway company, a municipal government or any other interested person, or on the Governor in Council’s own initiative, and

(b) after any investigation that the Governor in Council considers necessary,

request two or more railway companies to consider the joint or common use of a right-of-way if the Governor in Council is of the opinion that its joint or common use may improve the efficiency and effectiveness of rail transport and would not unduly impair the commercial interests of the companies.

Order in Council for joint or common use of right-of-way

(2) If the Governor in Council is satisfied that significant efficiencies and cost savings would result from joint or common use of the right-of-way by two or more railway companies and would not unduly impair the commercial interests of the companies, the Governor in Council may make any order for the joint or common use of the right-of-way that the Governor in Council considers necessary.
Marginal note:Compensation

(3) The Governor in Council may also, by order, fix the amount of compensation to be paid in respect of the joint or common use of the right-of-way and any related work if the companies do not agree on the amount of that compensation.
[…]
Canada Transportation Act (S.C. 1996, c. 10)
 
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And to put things into context: https://kickandpushca.wordpress.com/history-2/
http://www.metrolinx.com/en/regionalplanning/rer/20170308_Scarborough-Markham_Presentation_EN.pdf

Not from the history I'm reading. The K&P didn't branch off for Pembroke until north of the station:
https://kickandpushca.wordpress.com/history-2/

Almost exactly where the Family Health Team is now. Maybe they'll get a bigger better building out of the deal, and the present one becomes the new station? Progress can work for everyone willing...

Not to highjack with trivia, and last word on this, but the two lines came together south of the narrows (across a causeway south of your streetview), shared adjoining properties then diverged further north in the village. You can see the ROW scars on Google satellite. Not a great pic but :

1545186583835.png
 

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