[wopchop]

I just wanted to re-iterate the point about, despite this being the Kingston Sub, accessibility is a long way from guaranteed. I was just going through the report on the 1994 LRC fire, and the train's inaccessibility was a major point throughout.

That doesn't sound like the case here, though. From all the articles it was only a little bit west of Cobourg.
This one sounds like a complete failure between CN and VIA Rail to coordinate and communicate properly.

Storm turns Ottawa-Toronto Via Rail trip into a winter horror show

For passengers aboard a Toronto-bound Via Rail train Saturday, their journey was more like a Nightmare Before Christmas than the magic of Polar Express.

ottawacitizen.com

"“We were watching their progress on Via’s train tracker and it was all going well until around Napanee when we could see it was slowing down and then came to a stop. Kalinowski watched the train creep into Cobourg, then it stopped completely just west of Cobourg at around 11 p.m."

"At 12:50 a.m., her parents texted to say another train was on its way to pull the stranded Train 51, but as it neared a CN freight train was stopped on the track, preventing the Via train from getting into position for a tow. Meanwhile, a crew had come to clear the fallen tree but had to stop when they reached their allowable limit of hours worked."

"Finally, at around 11 a.m. Saturday, passengers were transferred onto a second rescue train that had been dispatched and resumed their journey."

 

[Bordercollie]

I'm certainly not going to defend VIA for not having contingency plans in conjunction with CN - this type of thing seems to be hardly an isolated incident for them.

But . . .

It's not always as easy as it seems. This was not the only stranded train, so maybe their ability to send a rescue train was hampered by other causes. Could it not move because of the tree or was it not allowed to move by RTC?

If they want buses on stand-by, they would have to pay for it. School bus companies would have to find drivers; where would coach companies have to come from. My brother used to driver for Trentway-Wagar and did the odd run to Sudbury to get Via passengers - from Toronto. On a night like that, would a bus company even allow their fleet out? The fact that it is on the Kingston sub doesn't guarantee that every part is road-accessible. I understand this one (55?) was, but probably not all were. The proposed route for the HFR has a lot of inaccessible stretches so I'm not sure it would necessarily fare much better except that all decisions would be VIA's (not necessarily a guarantee of a good thing)..

CN trains were also stranded, but their concern is purely economic.

Yes having drivers in the depot on standby incase something happens has a cost.

But we are taking about maybe 20? Bad weather days a year? Usually bus companies the side of coach Canada has drivers on reserve anyways for their own purposes. Even if VIA had a contract with them for the whole year it can't be that expensive.

It's a cost of doing business. They could have some mutual agreement where it allows bus passengers to take the train in exchange if the bus trip is cancelled.

If airlines can afford to put you on a VIA train it your flight is cancelled then VIA should be able to charter a bus if they cannot run trains.

And the fact that the locomotive window was broken by a tree branch is unfortunate and it cannot be moved on its own. In an emergency could they do a backup move? What is the rule for this situation?

It couldn't have taken 18 hours for a mechanic to drive from Toronto to Cobourg. Are there any mechanics stationed along the route?
I know that in London they have extra head lights and the ability to make those repairs but between Toronto and Montreal/Ottawa do they have this ability? The ideal location would be Belleville or Kingston.

 

[dowlingm]

Am catching up with this thread but on Twitter I hadn’t seen that there was a CN contribution to the mayhem. Given VIA’s luck it’s surprising that it wasn’t the Siemens set that got clobbered.

Whatever one thinks about the tree being preventable, there could have been another reason why this occurred with a similar impact. What seems less forgivable to me is that this was a storm predicted several days out, yet VIA was still flat footed on communication - holiday or not, one would think that contingency staff could have been arranged. Additionally, a tick-tock of what VIA operations centre knew from train crew and host railroad would be interesting to establish what gaps existed in the information flow to decision makers.

The “HSR/HFR” option (Havelock route) would have been useful *if available* and train crews were route-trained. I understand one issue was that even when the affected train was ready to proceed the crew had run out of hours - a diversion isn’t much use if the crew can’t traverse it in time.

Similarly, more wyes and sidings on the Kingston to get disabled trains off the mainline and blocked trains turned. I observed two joined trainsets - 918 HEP and 6426 LRC - being propelled backwards towards Union yesterday at maybe 30mph at MP330 (Monarch Park in Toronto)

and wondered how far they had come in that orientation.

 

[lenaitch]

Yes having drivers in the depot on standby incase something happens has a cost.

But we are taking about maybe 20? Bad weather days a year? Usually bus companies the side of coach Canada has drivers on reserve anyways for their own purposes. Even if VIA had a contract with them for the whole year it can't be that expensive.

It's a cost of doing business. They could have some mutual agreement where it allows bus passengers to take the train in exchange if the bus trip is cancelled.

If airlines can afford to put you on a VIA train it your flight is cancelled then VIA should be able to charter a bus if they cannot run trains.

And the fact that the locomotive window was broken by a tree branch is unfortunate and it cannot be moved on its own. In an emergency could they do a backup move? What is the rule for this situation?

It couldn't have taken 18 hours for a mechanic to drive from Toronto to Cobourg. Are there any mechanics stationed along the route?
I know that in London they have extra head lights and the ability to make those repairs but between Toronto and Montreal/Ottawa do they have this ability? The ideal location would be Belleville or Kingston.

Cost of business perhaps, but governments and their agencies don't typically work like that, which is one of the reasons governments don't always do well in service delivery outside of emergency services. Auditors would pound them for paying contractors to do nothing and the opposition and media would have field day. Heck, these days, a lot of private industry doesn't either unless it is 'mission critical'.

I doubt a windshield is a 'running repair' type part that would be available outside of a maintenance centre and that could be replaced by a single tech 'in situ' - in a storm.

 

[crs1026]

There'a no need to have people sitting around doing no work and getting paid for it, just in case somethng happens.

There are plenty of ways to mobilise when events require.

Admittedly this event happened at a "perfect storm" of bad weather and peak travel, but that's what contingency plans are for.

- Paul

 

[littlewill1166]

If anyone is wondering why CN doesn't want extra passenger services on its tracks, this incident and the opportunity cost of not being able to operate more freight trains are reasons why.

 

[dowlingm]

If anyone is wondering why CN doesn't want extra passenger services on its tracks, this incident and the opportunity cost of not being able to operate more freight trains are reasons why.

That’s an argument for infrastructure nationalization. CN might also be reflecting that at least someone else’s loco took the hit and the tree wasn’t lying in wait to derail a following freight.

 

[Bordercollie]

There'a no need to have people sitting around doing no work and getting paid for it, just in case somethng happens.

There are plenty of ways to mobilise when events require.

Admittedly this event happened at a "perfect storm" of bad weather and peak travel, but that's what contingency plans are for.

- Paul

You say that but if those people are essential in ensuring that the service will keep running then it's not a waste.

So you would rather have the train wait 2,3,4,5 hours to drive from Toronto to Kingston or from Montreal to fix a light bulb? Or a wiper blade? Maybe a fuse?

I don't know what engineers and conductors are allowed to repair but with that many trains in the corridor on a daily basis something is going to go wrong no matter how well you maintain the equipment.

That's like saying there is no point in having extra staff on standby during bad weather events because you may not need them. So then the train gets delayed and the crew runs out of hours and there is nobody to replace that crew. Then you have 200 angry passengers not to mention you still need to get the equipment to where it's supposed to be for the next run or you need to cancel that one too.

Or having fire fighters sitting at the fire hall is a waste because they are only needed for two hours a day on average. It's only until your house catches on fire that you realize how important they are

There needs to be a balance between proactive spending and reactive.

Otherwise you can just forget about using the train as a reliable means of transportation.

 

[cplchanb]

You say that but if those people are essential in ensuring that the service will keep running then it's not a waste.

So you would rather have the train wait 2,3,4,5 hours to drive from Toronto to Kingston or from Montreal to fix a light bulb? Or a wiper blade? Maybe a fuse?

I don't know what engineers and conductors are allowed to repair but with that many trains in the corridor on a daily basis something is going to go wrong no matter how well you maintain the equipment.

That's like saying there is no point in having extra staff on standby during bad weather events because you may not need them. So then the train gets delayed and the crew runs out of hours and there is nobody to replace that crew. Then you have 200 angry passengers not to mention you still need to get the equipment to where it's supposed to be for the next run or you need to cancel that one too.

Or having fire fighters sitting at the fire hall is a waste because they are only needed for two hours a day on average. It's only until your house catches on fire that you realize how important they are

There needs to be a balance between proactive spending and reactive.

Otherwise you can just forget about using the train as a reliable means of transportation.

It's more like retroactive spending.... way way retroactive

 

[Allandale25]

 

[Bordercollie]

It's more like retroactive spending.... way way retroactive

Also take into consideration that if taking the train is viewed as unreliable then less people will take it meaning it costs more to run the service than the fares generated. At that point it will cost even more to run empty trains.

You need to have a 90%+ service reliability, otherwise you may as well drive.

 

[lead82]

If the derailment is near Cobourg, why can’t they at least have service between Kingston and points east?

 

[Bordercollie]

If the derailment is near Cobourg, why can’t they at least have service between Kingston and points east?

Because Kingston is a halfway point. Most people want to travel to Toronto.

And because of the derailment trains are backed up and don't have the flexibility to allow VIA to run trains.

This would be a useful time to have their own corridor. And these incidents are becoming more and more common.

How busy is the Belleville Sub to allow trains to bypass the derailment?

 

[cplchanb]

View attachment 447281

Does CN not want to restore their services asap? How bad is it actually? This is further proof that via needs it's own corridor. 9/10 derailments are freight trains. On that note why is it that North America has so many derailments every year that it would just be shrugged off as a meh moment? Is it due to honking behemoth trains running on poorly maintained track?

 

[Bordercollie]

Does CN not want to restore their services asap? How bad is it actually? This is further proof that via needs it's own corridor. 9/10 derailments are freight trains. On that note why is it that North America has so many derailments every year that it would just be shrugged off as a meh moment? Is it due to honking behemoth trains running on poorly maintained track?

Profits first.

Poor regulatory oversight.