[kEiThZ]

I can understand bypassing Saint Marys. I don't understand bypassing Stratford. It's becoming a bit of a KWC and London exurb. And the cultural attraction is probably strong enough to justify a station.

Keeping Stratford also makes it easier to justify bypassing Saint Marys since Stratford is only 20 mins away.

 

[Northern Light]

I can understand bypassing Saint Marys. I don't understand bypassing Stratford. It's becoming a bit of a KWC and London exurb. And the cultural attraction is probably strong enough to justify a station.

Keeping Stratford also makes it easier to justify bypassing Saint Marys since Stratford is only 20 mins away.

The merit, such as it is, involves the savings in distance, as well as creating a straighter line, capable of sustaining higher speeds over longer distances.

If you compare KW-London, via Stratford to KW-London via the straightest possible line, you save about 10km.
But you would also net increased track speed, and presumably fewer stops.

****

I happen to agree with you on the value of Stratford; but I also think there is some value in future-proofing and thinking about the value of shorter travel times between larger centres.

(ie.. Detroit-Toronto)

The savings off that one bypass aren't huge, but they aren't 'nothing' either.
The key is more in what you save by repeating similar exercises multiple times over the route.

I don't think there is a business case, based on current circumstances, or top speeds of 200km/ph for creating an entirely new ROW for optimal speed.

But I can foresee the day when that will be true, and a top speed of 300km/ph or greater.

As such, I like the idea of protecting the optimal route; but not building it, in the near-term.

 

[reaperexpress]

In the super long term we may wish to bypass St Mary's because there's a single-track viaduct through the middle of town that would be quite expensive to double track, thus reducing the net cost of a bypass relative to maintaining the existing alignment.

However at the moment we're a loooong way off from needing to fully double track the line. Having one small single tracked segment along an otherwise double-tracked line would still easily support 3 different train services per hour per direction, which is more than we would have in the foreseeable future anyway.

The existing alignment is pretty good, as I showed yesterday, so there's no way any kind of new alignment would beat the cost-benefit ratio of upgrading the existing line between Kitchener and London. The only place bypassing might make sense in the foreseeable future is Acton and Rockwood, since those 70 mph curves are within built up areas and cannot be widened, and the eastern half of the line will be considerably busier than the west.

 

[crs1026]

As such, I like the idea of protecting the optimal route; but not building it, in the near-term.

We need to get future rail corridors into official plans right across Southern Ontario. Makes no sense to create painful expropriations in a couple of decades when the land can be banked now.

- Paul

 

[Urban Sky]

Just found this in a CTV news article:

"The exploratory work will include VIA Rail and the Canada Infrastructure Bank through the High Frequency Rail Joint Project Office."

Rail announcement loses steam with details of federal commitment lacking

Passengers in train-starved southwestern Ontario received a political commitment that rail service will improve, but few details were provided.

london.ctvnews.ca

Does this actually mean that the scope of the Study Area for HFR will be expanded to include SWO, just like I speculated ahead of the announcement?

 

[innsertnamehere]

Just found this in a CTV news article:

"The exploratory work will include VIA Rail and the Canada Infrastructure Bank through the High Frequency Rail Joint Project Office."

Rail announcement loses steam with details of federal commitment lacking

Passengers in train-starved southwestern Ontario received a political commitment that rail service will improve, but few details were provided.

london.ctvnews.ca

Does this actually mean that the scope of the Study Area for HFR will be expanded to include SWO, just like I speculated ahead of the announcement?

To me it sounds more like they will be studying improvements for southern ontario in addition to HFR through the same office. The level of service ultimately proposed may or may not be similar to what is occuring with the main HFR project.

 

[kEiThZ]

To me it sounds more like they will be studying improvements for southern ontario in addition to HFR through the same office. The level of service ultimately proposed may or may not be similar to what is occuring with the main HFR project.

There's no readily available corridor in Southwestern Ontario they could just start building on like there is with Havelock. And unlike going east, they would have to use so much of GO's planned RER network to get out of the GTA. So it's way more complex, than HFR. But I'm sure they'll be looking all the ideas that even we've bandied about here. And eventually, they'll have to cut a large cheque to CN to hand over the sub between Guelph and London.

 

[innsertnamehere]

There's no readily available corridor in Southwestern Ontario they could just start building on like there is with Havelock. And unlike going east, they would have to use so much of GO's planned RER network to get out of the GTA. So it's way more complex, than HFR. But I'm sure they'll be looking all the ideas that even we've bandied about here. And eventually, they'll have to cut a large cheque to CN to hand over the sub between Guelph and London.

At least to London there is with the corridor through Kitchener - down to Windsor is a bit murkier but my understanding is that the CN sub is pretty lightly used through there so it's likely not much of an issue.

The sub between Guelph and London likely won't be a challenging purchase, CN was happy to sell the eastern half to Metrolinx a decade ago.

 

[Allandale25]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1418235167248945154

Government of Canada to explore opportunities to enhance passenger rail services in Southwestern Ontario

The Government of Canada is committed to working towards enhancing and modernizing intercity passenger rail services in a way that will best meet the transportation needs of travellers, as outlined in the vision for Transportation 2030.

www.canada.ca

 

[DirectionNorth]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1418235167248945154

Government of Canada to explore opportunities to enhance passenger rail services in Southwestern Ontario

The Government of Canada is committed to working towards enhancing and modernizing intercity passenger rail services in a way that will best meet the transportation needs of travellers, as outlined in the vision for Transportation 2030.

www.canada.ca

"Canadians deserve 21st century train service. That's what we are not delivering to the people of Windsor with our studies. Today, I am announcing a pre-election commitment that will be forgotten after the election, along with what seems to be another study about HSR/HFR in SW Ontario."

This is a joke. A total joke.

I'll copy the release and interpret it.

News release​

July 22, 2021 Windsor, Ontario Transport Canada
The Government of Canada is committed to working towards enhancing and modernizing intercity passenger rail services in a way that will best meet the transportation needs of travellers, as outlined in the vision for Transportation 2030.

Government Press Release To Win Elections By Promising More Nothingness

July 22, 2021 Windsor, Ontario Doing Nothing To Improve Transport Canada
The Government of Canada is committed to bringing Canadian passenger rail into the early 20th century, introducing not-older-than-your-grandpa trains that we will pretend to be useful for travelers, outlined in a worthless plan without any actual vision that we won't meet anyways.

Today, the Minister of Transport, the Honourable Omar Alghabra, the Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion and Member of Parliament for Windsor—Tecumseh, Irek Kusmierczyk and Chief Executive Officer of Via Rail, Cynthia Garneau, announced that the Government of Canada is exploring opportunities to enhance passenger rail services in Southwestern Ontario.

Today, our (least) favorite politicians announced yet another study in our endless cycle of studies, to maybe slightly improve (read: degrade) services in SW Ontario.

As the Government of Canada takes first steps in preparing for the procurement process to build new, High-Frequency Rail services in the Toronto to Quebec City Corridor, efforts will also be undertaken to determine how passenger rail services might be improved to better service markets west of Toronto, including London and Windsor.

As we prepared to embark on a pretend-HFR building scheme from Toronto to Quebec City for political purposes, because this is a pre-election time of year, more studies are coming on how we can "improve" (read: cut costs) on passenger rail services west of Toronto, including London and Windsor.

The Government of Canada will work with key partners including VIA Rail and the Canada Infrastructure Bank through the High Frequency Rail Joint Project Office to ensure that any enhancements to passenger rail services in Southwestern Ontario can be effectively integrated with the core route for High Frequency Rail in the Toronto to Quebec City Corridor.
The Government of Canada will be reaching out to the Province of Ontario to identify areas of collaboration and avoid any duplication with provincial transportation plans, including new services to be offered by GO Transit and Metrolinx, to ensure that enhancements to passenger rail services benefit travellers most.

The government will work with with VIA and the CIB through the HFR study office to ensure that we can do nothing except some press releases like this one, and that we can "integrate" with HFR. That is, do nothing. The Government will also negotiate with the province to identify places where we can cut service, to ensure that we "enhance" services to passenger rail services to "benefit" travellers by decreasing something ... confusion, maybe?

“There is a strong appetite for enhanced passenger rail services in Southwestern Ontario. Improvements to passenger rail service in this region would provide better options for travellers while also enabling the economic growth of communities along the rail network.”
The Honourable Omar Alghabra
Minister of Transport

"There is demand for better passenger rail services in Southwestern Ontario. Putting back cancelled trains will create a nothingness as trains still use CN and CP tracks that are increasingly busy, enabling delays and politicizing of our rail network in the communities next to it. In addition, this section of VIA's services, with the highest cost-recovery ratio in the network, will continue to get a nothingness. We'll just say that economic growth came from the "improved" train."
The "Honorable" Omar Alghabra
Minister of Transport

“Enhanced rail service goes hand-in-hand with accelerated and sustainable economic growth, and it is a key step towards the ultimate goal of high frequency passenger rail between Windsor and Toronto.”
Irek Kusmierczyk
Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of Employment, Workforce Development and Disability Inclusion and Member of Parliament for Windsor—Tecumseh

"Resuming rail service that was previously cancelled goes hand-in-hand with throwing money away for lost causes like this one, and it is a key step in our goal to pretend to have some level of rail services between Windsor and Toronto."
Irek Kusmericzyk
Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of "Employment", "Workforce Development", and "Disability Inclusion" and Member of Parliament for Windsor-Tecumseh

“Driven by our mission to put our passengers first, VIA Rail has been working for several years on its modernization program which will transform the Canadian journey. The announcement made today represents an opportunity to continue building on this momentum as it will allow to offer an enhanced and truly intermodal experience, while contributing to better serving communities in Southwestern Ontario.”
Cynthia Garneau
VIA Rail Canada President and Chief Executive Officer

"Driven by our mission to do nothing, VIA Rail has been undertaking more endless studies to introduce trains that are younger than our employees which will transform the journey for nobody, because the trains are still using CN and CP tracks. The nothingness "announced" today represents yet another missed opportunity as we continue to offer no improvements in experience nor speed which connects to bulls***, while helping to do nothing in Southwestern Ontario."
Cynthia Garneau
VIA Rail Canada President and Chief Executive Officer

 

[jamincan]

Just remember that Canada is a global leader in high-speed rail studies. We have to play to our strengths.

 

[Allandale25]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1418280773149462531

 

[TerryJohnson]

Just found this in a CTV news article:

"The exploratory work will include VIA Rail and the Canada Infrastructure Bank through the High Frequency Rail Joint Project Office."

Rail announcement loses steam with details of federal commitment lacking

Passengers in train-starved southwestern Ontario received a political commitment that rail service will improve, but few details were provided.

london.ctvnews.ca

Does this actually mean that the scope of the Study Area for HFR will be expanded to include SWO, just like I speculated ahead of the announcement?

Question asked by the media in Windsor this morning: "What is the timeline and the budget?"

Answer: “As we are starting the procurement process for phase 1, phase 2 right now is we are examining options. Let me tell you concrete examples of what that means because we need to have concrete answers to these questions. What are the needs? Increasing frequency? We know we want to increase frequency, speed and reliability. Can we get that out of the existing tracks? Do we need new tracks? Where should the stops be? All these questions need to be answered as we decide to move to the next phase. So today I am announcing our commitment to starting this work.”

Unfortunately, that sounds a bit too much like deferring real action for my tastes. However, I'm just as happy they didn't pull any high-speed rabbits out of the hat that would be at odds with the ongoing SWO Transportation Task Force. Coming to the table is much better than flipping it. Once the province's task force reports back in the fall, there isn't really any further valid excuse for dithering.

 

[reaperexpress]

There's no readily available corridor in Southwestern Ontario they could just start building on like there is with Havelock.

There are similar opportunities to the west of Toronto as to the east.

Toronto - London

Existing railway owners:
Green = GO
Blue = CN
Red = CP
faint green = abandoned

A fantasy map of reorganized mainlines:

As others have noted, the existing north mainline is incredibly lightly-used and has a very good alignment. Obviously the main obstacle is the segment between Georgeown and Bramalea which is CN's mainline. In my fantasy map above, I showed CN being bypassed onto the Missing Link, but based on Metrolinx's statements, it sounds like frequent VIA service (~1 train per hour) might be possible without the bypass. Reading between the lines of the Kitchener Expansion business case, it sounds like even without a grade separation west of Mount Pleasant, CN agreed to 3 GO trains per hour from Toronto to Mt Pleasant, of which 1 continues through to Kitchener. If that's true, then it may simply be sufficient to build said grade separation to bump CN's agreement up to 4 trains (3 GO + 1 VIA).

West of Georgetown, far more double track would be required than is currently planned for GO's 1 train per hour base service.

And unlike going east, they would have to use so much of GO's planned RER network to get out of the GTA. So it's way more complex, than HFR. But I'm sure they'll be looking all the ideas that even we've bandied about here.

The Kitchener line is currently being quad-tracked through the busy central portion, so as long as GO organizes their services onto separate "local" and "express" tracks, VIA should have a pretty clear shot through the GTA.

And eventually, they'll have to cut a large cheque to CN to hand over the sub between Guelph and London.

Metrolinx bought the 53 km segment from Kitchener to Georgetown for $76 Million in 2014. That's $1.44M per km, which is the equivalent of $1.59M today. So at that rate, the 92-km segment from London to Kitchener would cost $146M.

London - Windsor:

Existing railway owners:
Yellow = VIA
Blue = CN
Red = CP
faint green = abandoned

A fantasy map:

 

[TerryJohnson]

...

London - Windsor:

Existing railway owners:
Yellow = VIA
Blue = CN
Red = CP
faint green = abandoned
View attachment 336823

A fantasy map:
View attachment 336821

Unfortunately the whole of the former CASO has been ripped up, and the track north of Chatham are also idled and overgrown. However, there plenty of capacity for CN and VIA to share the Chatham Sub, unless the plan becomes to reconnect service to Detroit and Chicago, in which case the alignment along the CP corridor west of Chatham recommended by David Collenette is much better than the apparent proposal in the Amtrak Connects US plan to use the ETR to get from the tunnel to Walkerville.