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Yeah, their grocery section isn't bad but it only sells the basics. You wouldn't be able to find anything more exotic than a mango and practically no specialty herbs, spices, oils, etc. or any interesting cuts of meat. It kind of reminds me of what grocery stores used to be in small towns about 25 years ago.

That's the thing with Walmart and the thing that people are constantly missing when they say it'll kill Kensington: Walmart just sells basics. They don't sell fancy shoes. They don't sell fancy bikes. They don't sell cheese that doesn't come pre-sliced. They compete with other big box retailers who sell basic, high-turnover, low-medium quality household items. These same retailers buy their products from the same Chinese suppliers and pay their workers the same wages. The only reason Walmart gets all the flak is because it's the largest retailer and therefore a symbol to hang your grievances of the whole retail industry on. It's similar to McDonald's. Nobody makes movies about how unhealthy it is to eat at Burger King or Taco Bell, but you're putting the same garbage in your mouth. Or worse.

I get your point but it's not really true. When it comes to labour rights Walmart is particularly bad. It's well documented and has already been covered in this thread how they union bust, and have an especially aggressive business model to drive competitors out of business. If you look at what's happened to Canadian box retail since Walmart has entered the market it's not pretty. Eatons and Zellers are gone. Hudson's Bay has been struggling for a very long time. These are the most high profile and biggest examples but you can imagine what's happened to smaller retailers.

It's easy and convenient to shrug shoulders at this but because of the size of Walmart, the economic issues are huge and very complex. It's driving entire national chains out of business. While it might not seem terrible without a close critical examination, the effects of this are really important. Trying to compete with Walmart means lowering costs, which means driving down employee wages, finding cheaper ways to manufacture goods (resulting not only in massive losses of local jobs from outsourcing, but in huge growth in dangerous working conditions in overseas factories under pressure to lower their costs), and the resulting pressure on government to lower business costs decreasing government revenue. It's a really big, wide reaching issue.

Do you ever wonder why big box retailers tend to sell basic, high turnover low quality items? Walmart invented that business model... the same way McDonald's grew the fast food business model. The poster earlier hits the nail on the head when he talks about the decline in quality of manufactured goods at Canadian Tire. When you are competing with Walmart you have to lower costs, there's absolutely no alternative except being run out of business. Decline in quality, offshore manufacturing, lower wages, corporate welfare follows.

Is this something we want in Kensington Market? You might have a point that Kensington's culture is so resiliant and unique that Walmart opening in the area will have little effect, but why even take the chance? What benefit is there? Why do we need a Walmart there?
 
You can also argue that the niche retailers in Kensington do well in part because you can also go there to get the basics. I know when I'm there I have a tendency to wander in and purchase from the specialty shops because they're mixed in with the rest. I'd be less likely to go there if I couldn't also get the rest of my groceries. Same deal with St. Lawrence market. Would the specialty/import shops in the basement be able to survive without the produce and meat markets above?

As for the wage issue, yes, the Mom and Pop shops also pay minimum wages, but Walmart benefits because of it's scale. Because everything is all in one place rather than scattered through various stores, Walmart can get away with hiring fewer people per item sold than the smaller more specialized retailers. Also, profits from the Mom and Pop shops tend to be spent in the local community (because that's where Mom and Pop live) rather than locked up in investments of millionaires/billionaires around the world. Walmart pulls money out of local communities without putting much back while local small business tends to have a symbiotic relationship with a healthy surrounding community.
 
Kensington Market used to have establishments that actually manufactured their goods. Such as abattoirs, butchers, delicatessens, bakeries, tailors, etc.. However, city bureaucrats, political interference, and complaints caused most of them to move out of Kensington Market to become wholesalers in the suburbs, instead of retailers. It wouldn't surprise me to find their products on the shelves of Wal-Mart and other food chains, not just the independent stores.
 
The specious arguments made above with regard to the cheap and shoddy merchandise offered by Walmart (and CTC) lead me to believe that those making these statements have never spent much time in these stores.

Both of these stores stock precisely the same toasters, lawn mowers and gadgets as any other retailer except at lower prices. Don't take my word for it, go to your favourite dealer for these or any other item, jot down the price and toddle off to Walmart and compare. You will find all the big names as well as store brands that look remarkably similar to them, like maybe came off the same assembly line.

Food items that you buy elsewhere are there too, all the big brand names and house brands too. My favourite cereal is Kellogg's (recognize the brand?) Muslix, $4.68 at Walmart, over $6.00 anywhere else I have been able to find it on the shelves.

Shoes and clothing tend to be house brands just like the other big retailers. Nobody else sells cheap bicycles? Really.

The bottom line guys is that you hate Box Stores and will tie yourselves into silly knots trying to convert your opinions into facts.
 
There is almost nothing in my household in terms of food that is available at Walmart. Good for you if you can meet your needs there.

You are clearly unfamiliar with the bicycle industry if you think it's easy to find a store that carries bikes as poor as those in Walmart and Canadian Tire. Personally I don't know any.

I do remember getting a nice microwave at Walmart ages ago, it was the most expensive one they had in store and the only one of the lot I would have trusted not to give me cancer. I would have preferred to buy it elsewhere so that my $300 could stay within the community, but I couldn't find any stores in the vicinity carrying microwaves at all.
 
There is almost nothing in my household in terms of food that is available at Walmart. Good for you if you can meet your needs there.

You are clearly unfamiliar with the bicycle industry if you think it's easy to find a store that carries bikes as poor as those in Walmart and Canadian Tire. Personally I don't know any.

I do remember getting a nice microwave at Walmart ages ago, it was the most expensive one they had in store and the only one of the lot I would have trusted not to give me cancer. I would have preferred to buy it elsewhere so that my $300 could stay within the community, but I couldn't find any stores in the vicinity carrying microwaves at all.

Recently, I have turned Wal-Mart (and other brick & mortar stores) into showrooms for me. I don't buy there, but turn to the internet (IE. ebay) to get the same item (even with shipping costs).
 
There is almost nothing in my household in terms of food that is available at Walmart. Good for you if you can meet your needs there.

You are clearly unfamiliar with the bicycle industry if you think it's easy to find a store that carries bikes as poor as those in Walmart and Canadian Tire. Personally I don't know any.

I do remember getting a nice microwave at Walmart ages ago, it was the most expensive one they had in store and the only one of the lot I would have trusted not to give me cancer. I would have preferred to buy it elsewhere so that my $300 could stay within the community, but I couldn't find any stores in the vicinity carrying microwaves at all.
Care to list those food items that you would have to do without if you shopped at Walmart? I'll give you obscure foreign cheeses but they are hardly existential items the absence of which justify your refusal to shop at Walmart because of their absence on their shelves.

As far as the Microwave purchase goes, I rest my case.
 
Recently, I have turned Wal-Mart (and other brick & mortar stores) into showrooms for me. I don't buy there, but turn to the internet (IE. ebay) to get the same item (even with shipping costs).
If Walmart is bad let's punish them and all their employees, who are your neighbours, by sending your money not to the local Mom and Pop shop or Walmart but to some vendor in the sky. That'll teach them.

Thanks for making Walmart look good.
 
If the Walmart hadn't been there chances are I could have bought the same microwave from a local retailer and my money would have stayed in the community. Sure, I would have paid like $20 more or something, but then the owner of the store may be my customer one day.

Let me open my fridge and see what's in there and around...

OK, here goes:

- Organic free-run eggs
- Organic 4% milk
- Kozlik's Canadian Mustard
- Organic almond butter
- Organic quinoa
- Almond flour
- Organic wheat berries
- Fresh basil
- Preserved Peruvian eggplants
- Zucchini
- Avocado
- Carrots
- Maple butter
- Organic Canadian Emmental cheese
- 4 Year-old Aged Cheddar
- Montreal-style Bagels (from NuBugel)
- Pumpernickel Rye
- Portobello mushrooms
- Whole rye flour
- Mayo

And my favourite cereal is Yogactive (which has nothing to do with yoga but rather with yoghurt). It is not available at Walmart in Ontario.

I tried doing my groceries at Walmart many times over the years (usually when accompanying a friend), and every single time I came out almost empty-handed. I remarkably bought these plantains and avocados once that did not mature over the course of a whole summer. I threw them away after three months!

P.S. I listed as many things as I had the patience to, didn't focus on items I'm unlikely to find at Walmart.
 
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I get your point but it's not really true. When it comes to labour rights Walmart is particularly bad. It's well documented and has already been covered in this thread how they union bust, and have an especially aggressive business model to drive competitors out of business. If you look at what's happened to Canadian box retail since Walmart has entered the market it's not pretty. Eatons and Zellers are gone. Hudson's Bay has been struggling for a very long time. These are the most high profile and biggest examples but you can imagine what's happened to smaller retailers.

For the most part, the struggles of Canadian retailers predate the entry of WalMart into the Canadian retail scene. Eaton's went bankrupt in 1998, but was having troubles long before WalMart entered Canada in 1997; Hudson's Bay struggled for the same reasons that Eaton's did but seems to have found their niche by going upscale. Their HBC stores like Home Sense, etc. seem to be doing okay and directly compete against WalMart.

As for WalMart's labour practices, it is bound to be well-documented because it simply is the biggest company. That's what I was talking about when I said that WalMart suffers from McDonald's syndrome. It's not necessarily the worst when it comes to labour, but it gets more attention than others because of its size.

It's easy and convenient to shrug shoulders at this but because of the size of Walmart, the economic issues are huge and very complex. It's driving entire national chains out of business. While it might not seem terrible without a close critical examination, the effects of this are really important. Trying to compete with Walmart means lowering costs, which means driving down employee wages, finding cheaper ways to manufacture goods (resulting not only in massive losses of local jobs from outsourcing, but in huge growth in dangerous working conditions in overseas factories under pressure to lower their costs), and the resulting pressure on government to lower business costs decreasing government revenue. It's a really big, wide reaching issue.

I think this was part of a wider, global trend in manufacturing and retail and WalMart can only shoulder so much blame. It certainly wasn't the cause of this. Offshoring of manufacturing and the documented rise in labour exploitation exists in countries that have never had WalMart or in retail sectors with which WalMart doesn't compete at all. For example, upscale fashion labels that WalMart would never carry are some of the worst offenders of these kinds of labour practices.

The other thing we have to remember is that labour exploitation in the developing world is not a new phenomenon brought about by Neoliberals after 1980. It has existed for hundreds of years in different forms, it's just the amount of attention that has been devoted to this has increased dramatically in the past 25 years, or so. Moving industry to low wage areas is as old as the hills. Manufacturing began to move out of high wage, unionized areas of the United States almost immediately after the Taft Hartley Act was signed in 1947.

Do you ever wonder why big box retailers tend to sell basic, high turnover low quality items?

Because those are things that almost everybody demands on a regular basis.

Walmart invented that business model... the same way McDonald's grew the fast food business model. The poster earlier hits the nail on the head when he talks about the decline in quality of manufactured goods at Canadian Tire.

This is all anecdotal. I haven't actually seen any real evidence that consumer goods have declined in structural quality in the past 30 years. In most cases I actually find that the quality of manufactured items has gone up, especially when you consider the price paid for those items. I mean, I can throw out anecdotes too: the 1979 Toyota Tercel my parents owned was a rusting piece of garbage by the time it had 200,000km on the clock. My friend's similarly-driven 2001 Honda Accord still purrs like a dream.

When you are competing with Walmart you have to lower costs, there's absolutely no alternative except being run out of business. Decline in quality, offshore manufacturing, lower wages, corporate welfare follows.

The alternative is you sell niche products that a big box retailer doesn't want to carry. The amount of stuff that WalMart doesn`t carry is actually quite vast and not only includes high-priced items, but also most foodstuffs, not just specialty food items. For example, all the Portguguese fish merchants won`t be threatened because WalMart doesn`t sell fish other than frozen Captain Highliner cod. If anything, the opening of the Loblaws at Queen and Portland (which is just as close as the proposed WalMart) would have threatened Kensington more. And speaking about labour practices, that Loblaws also contains a Joe Fresh. Why aren't Kensington fashion merchants directing their anger there?

Is this something we want in Kensington Market? You might have a point that Kensington's culture is so resiliant and unique that Walmart opening in the area will have little effect, but why even take the chance? What benefit is there? Why do we need a Walmart there?

I find it unethical and elitist to restrict a business from opening based on specious beliefs. I don't see how WalMart has been involved in labour practices - especially from the foreign supplier end - that are any worse than any of their competitors. I don't see how WalMart treats its local workers any worse than its competitors, either. Actually, I know some pharmacists and they tell me that WalMart is above average in terms of pay and benefits. I don't think that everything is efficiently provided by the free market, but I think that consumer retail pretty much is. I think it's up to people to vote with their wallets. If the people of the area think WalMart is so horrendous they have the right not to shop there and the place will become unprofitable and close down. If, however, enough people do want to shop there, why not let them?
 
If the Walmart hadn't been there chances are I could have bought the same microwave from a local retailer and my money would have stayed in the community. Sure, I would have paid like $20 more or something, but then the owner of the store may be my customer one day.

Let me open my fridge and see what's in there and around...

OK, here goes:

- Organic free-run eggs
- Organic 4% milk
- Kozlik's Canadian Mustard
- Organic almond butter
- Organic quinoa
- Almond flour
- Organic wheat berries
- Fresh basil
- Preserved Peruvian eggplants
- Zucchini
- Avocado
- Carrots
- Maple butter
- Organic Canadian Emmental cheese
- 4 Year-old Aged Cheddar
- Montreal-style Bagels (from NuBugel)
- Pumpernickel Rye
- Portobello mushrooms
- Whole rye flour
- Mayo

And my favourite cereal is Yogactive (which has nothing to do with yoga but rather with yoghurt). It is not available at Walmart in Ontario.

I tried doing my groceries at Walmart many times over the years (usually when accompanying a friend), and every single time I came out almost empty-handed. I remarkably bought these plantains and avocados once that did not mature over the course of a whole summer. I threw them away after three months!

P.S. I listed as many things as I had the patience to, didn't focus on items I'm unlikely to find at Walmart.

A fridge full of staples that I'm sure no household in Toronto could possibly survive without. Preserved Peruvian Eggplants really- the outrage.
 
For the most part, the struggles of Canadian retailers predate the entry of WalMart into the Canadian retail scene. Eaton's went bankrupt in 1998, but was having troubles long before WalMart entered Canada in 1997; Hudson's Bay struggled for the same reasons that Eaton's did but seems to have found their niche by going upscale. Their HBC stores like Home Sense, etc. seem to be doing okay and directly compete against WalMart.

Walmart entered canada in 1994. I have no idea where you got that number, anyway, we can argue all day about why eatons went bankrupt, but I really doubt you can argue that Walmart ate away at their business and every other department store's business when they entered the market.

As for WalMart's labour practices, it is bound to be well-documented because it simply is the biggest company. That's what I was talking about when I said that WalMart suffers from McDonald's syndrome. It's not necessarily the worst when it comes to labour, but it gets more attention than others because of its size.

Ok? It's not the worst? So who is the worst? Why is it not the worst? I don't know why it matters if they're the worst. They're certainly pretty terrible, isn't that enough?

I think this was part of a wider, global trend in manufacturing and retail and WalMart can only shoulder so much blame. It certainly wasn't the cause of this. Offshoring of manufacturing and the documented rise in labour exploitation exists in countries that have never had WalMart or in retail sectors with which WalMart doesn't compete at all. For example, upscale fashion labels that WalMart would never carry are some of the worst offenders of these kinds of labour practices.

The other thing we have to remember is that labour exploitation in the developing world is not a new phenomenon brought about by Neoliberals after 1980. It has existed for hundreds of years in different forms, it's just the amount of attention that has been devoted to this has increased dramatically in the past 25 years, or so. Moving industry to low wage areas is as old as the hills. Manufacturing began to move out of high wage, unionized areas of the United States almost immediately after the Taft Hartley Act was signed in 1947.

Doesn't make it suck any less.


Because those are things that almost everybody demands on a regular basis.

This is all anecdotal. I haven't actually seen any real evidence that consumer goods have declined in structural quality in the past 30 years. In most cases I actually find that the quality of manufactured items has gone up, especially when you consider the price paid for those items. I mean, I can throw out anecdotes too: the 1979 Toyota Tercel my parents owned was a rusting piece of garbage by the time it had 200,000km on the clock. My friend's similarly-driven 2001 Honda Accord still purrs like a dream.

I have with lots of goods. Obviously it doesn't apply to everything. I wasn't really talking about change in the same good over time, but the growing popularity of disposable merchandise that's cheap over expensive high quality goods among the middle class. Walmart wouldn't have grown to the size it is today without tapping into an underserved demand for less expensive, lower quality goods.

The alternative is you sell niche products that a big box retailer doesn't want to carry. The amount of stuff that WalMart doesn`t carry is actually quite vast and not only includes high-priced items, but also most foodstuffs, not just specialty food items. For example, all the Portguguese fish merchants won`t be threatened because WalMart doesn`t sell fish other than frozen Captain Highliner cod. If anything, the opening of the Loblaws at Queen and Portland (which is just as close as the proposed WalMart) would have threatened Kensington more.

Kind of a hope and a prayer that Walmart is somehow not going to be successful in this particular area when it's business model has already proven to be extremely successful.

And speaking about labour practices, that Loblaws also contains a Joe Fresh. Why aren't Kensington fashion merchants directing their anger there?

I don't know, perhaps they are. They definitely should be. It's irrelevent to the discussion about Walmart.

I find it unethical and elitist to restrict a business from opening based on specious beliefs.

That's certainly one opinion. As are that my "beliefs" (facts) are "specious" (this has somehow become a popular phrase among urban toronto conservatives?)


I don't see how WalMart has been involved in labour practices - especially from the foreign supplier end - that are any worse than any of their competitors.

Walmart's business strategy of forcing their suppliers to lower their costs, or else, and their unparrelled power to do so is well documented. Google it.

I don't see how WalMart treats its local workers any worse than its competitors, either. Actually, I know some pharmacists and they tell me that WalMart is above average in terms of pay and benefits. I don't think that everything is efficiently provided by the free market, but I think that consumer retail pretty much is. I think it's up to people to vote with their wallets. If the people of the area think WalMart is so horrendous they have the right not to shop there and the place will become unprofitable and close down. If, however, enough people do want to shop there, why not let them?

Congratulations on knowing a pharmicist and extrapolating how a highly educated and skilled position is treated to how high school dropout full time retail cashiers are treated. That's quite the stretch.
 
Walmart entered canada in 1994. I have no idea where you got that number, anyway, we can argue all day about why eatons went bankrupt, but I really doubt you can argue that Walmart ate away at their business and every other department store's business when they entered the market.

It was up to the department stores of the day to upgrade themselves before WalMart came in. Too often, Canadian retailers get away with piss poor service and bad product offerings and then wonder why American upstarts ate them alive. I can only wonder what would happen to Rogers and Bell if our cell phone market was freely opened up to foreign competition.

OT, but as an urbanist, I didn't lament the day Eaton's went belly up. If the name 'Eaton's' comes to my mind, all I can think about is how they took over the most centrally-located blocks in downtowns big and small and ripped down beautiful Victorian commercial blocks to put up their hideous, inward-facing stores. It's ironic that urbanists lament how WalMarts kill downtown when Eaton's much more literally did just that, bulldozers and all.

Ok? It's not the worst? So who is the worst? Why is it not the worst? I don't know why it matters if they're the worst. They're certainly pretty terrible, isn't that enough?

No, it's not enough because you can't prove that they are worse than their competitors but you still want to apply special punishment to WalMart (ie. they aren't allowed to set up shop here). Almost all major retailers have some dirty labour practices somewhere in their supply chain, so we either exclude all of them or none of them otherwise we're applying a double standard.


I have with lots of goods. Obviously it doesn't apply to everything. I wasn't really talking about change in the same good over time, but the growing popularity of disposable merchandise that's cheap over expensive high quality goods among the middle class. Walmart wouldn't have grown to the size it is today without tapping into an underserved demand for less expensive, lower quality goods.

I wasn't talking about change in the same good over time, either. What I mean is that if you ran a battery of tests on an assortment of goods made in Canada in 1963 versus an assortment of goods manufactured in China in 2013, I am doubtful that the Canadian-made goods from back then were any sturdier than the Chinese made goods today. My point is that the notion that goods are "lower in quality" today have no basis in fact.

Kind of a hope and a prayer that Walmart is somehow not going to be successful in this particular area when it's business model has already proven to be extremely successful.

If it's successful, it's successful because people actually want to go and shop there. People like you and RC8 can continue to buy your wares at higher prices at independent stores. I don't begrudge you of that, so you shouldn't begrudge people who want to shop at WalMart.

I don't know, perhaps they are. They definitely should be. It's irrelevent to the discussion about Walmart.

It's relevant here. This thread was started by people who busted a nut that WalMart was coming to their neighbourhood. Why aren't those same people up in arms about a retailer with a known history of poor labour practices also setting up in their neighbourhood? Why didn't Adam Vaughan scream bloody murder when RioCan allowed a Joe Fresh outlet to set up in his ward? If you're upset about WalMart but not about Joe Fresh, then you're applying your beliefs inconsistently.

That's certainly one opinion. As are that my "beliefs" (facts) are "specious" (this has somehow become a popular phrase among urban toronto conservatives?)

No, the absence of evidence is more than just an opinion. It's up to you to prove to me that WalMart is demonstrably worse for the world than its competitors. Otherwise your beliefs really *are* specious. It's true that all you've been able to throw in my direction are your values.

I'm also not a conservative. My point about how I don't think all things can be solved efficiently by the market was a dead giveaway.

Congratulations on knowing a pharmicist and extrapolating how a highly educated and skilled position is treated to how high school dropout full time retail cashiers are treated. That's quite the stretch.

No, not one pharmacist. A number of pharmacists, only one of whom works for WalMart. And who cares if a pharmacist has more credentials than a cashier? Both are frontline retail positions. Or do only the needs of cashiers matter now?
 
I am curious. What if it were not Wal-Mart that was going to set up near Kensington Market, but Target? Would there be the same controversy? Target is not that different from Wal-Mart regarding their made-in-China stuff and their labour practices.
 
I am curious. What if it were not Wal-Mart that was going to set up near Kensington Market, but Target? Would there be the same controversy? Target is not that different from Wal-Mart regarding their made-in-China stuff and their labour practices.

Almost everything is made in China these days and no large company really has any progressive labour policies. But Walmart garners a certain measure of loathing from a lot of people. Mind you, I saw a Walmart commercial today that said 60% of Americans shot at Walmart at least once a month. This is a ridiculously large company.
 

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