Paleo
Active Member
I don't understand how Mayor Doug Ford can unilaterally decide by fiat to spend tens of millions (if not over a hundred million) of Toronto taxpayer dollars without having to seek the approval of Council.
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- Thread starter AlvinofDiaspar
- Start date
I don't understand how Mayor Doug Ford can unilaterally decide by fiat to spend tens of millions (if not over a hundred million) of Toronto taxpayer dollars without having to seek the approval of Council.
neubilder
Banned
Great summary, this needs to get exposure. Have you submitted this to any media?
Great job and a must read.
Marko
Active Member
Matt - I read your piece where you used the Cityplace renders as an example of developers making pretty renders that end up looking nothing like the completed project - but the top (aerial) render is actually almost exactly how the end result is turning out (keeping in mind it's not done). That the buildings and greenery are not true-to-life in color is enough to make it misleading? Few renders and up looking as close to the end result.
Riverdale Rink Rat
Senior Member
Q for y'all
I'd like to throw a question out to the UT universe:
What was your level of awareness of WT, waterfront renewal, etc. before the Huns stormed City Hall?
I've read/heard a number of times lately that this kerfuffle was a good thing because it 'raised awareness' of all the things WT had been doing. Now, I live in Riverdale and ride the 504 and we use the Spit/Beaches/Waterfront/Islands as our personal playground, so I've been an avid follower of WT for awhile. We do dumb fanboy crap like biking down to Sherbourne Commons to see how things have advanced since the last time we biked down to do the same thing. So... I'm engaged with the waterfront.
But is it really possible that 80-90% of Torontonians have absolutely no clue of all of the work/changes that have gone on along the Waterfront? That they're still not aware of the great outdoor stage that went in at Harbourfront years ago? The new boardwalk and restos at QQT? Wave decks? Against the Grain? Corus? Sugar Beach?
The reason I ask is that, up until a few months ago when he actually left the NatPost redoubt in Don Mills and went down to Queen's Quay, Chris Selley wrote all kinds of disparaging things about WT... and then had to write a bit of a 'mea culpa' revision because it turns out that stuff was happening, just like WT says it was on their website.
Am I too close to the situation, so it's obvious to me, but not the rest of Toronto, that great things are happening? Or are the Fordites willfully blind because they have ulterior motives? Or both?
I'd like to throw a question out to the UT universe:
What was your level of awareness of WT, waterfront renewal, etc. before the Huns stormed City Hall?
I've read/heard a number of times lately that this kerfuffle was a good thing because it 'raised awareness' of all the things WT had been doing. Now, I live in Riverdale and ride the 504 and we use the Spit/Beaches/Waterfront/Islands as our personal playground, so I've been an avid follower of WT for awhile. We do dumb fanboy crap like biking down to Sherbourne Commons to see how things have advanced since the last time we biked down to do the same thing. So... I'm engaged with the waterfront.
But is it really possible that 80-90% of Torontonians have absolutely no clue of all of the work/changes that have gone on along the Waterfront? That they're still not aware of the great outdoor stage that went in at Harbourfront years ago? The new boardwalk and restos at QQT? Wave decks? Against the Grain? Corus? Sugar Beach?
The reason I ask is that, up until a few months ago when he actually left the NatPost redoubt in Don Mills and went down to Queen's Quay, Chris Selley wrote all kinds of disparaging things about WT... and then had to write a bit of a 'mea culpa' revision because it turns out that stuff was happening, just like WT says it was on their website.
Am I too close to the situation, so it's obvious to me, but not the rest of Toronto, that great things are happening? Or are the Fordites willfully blind because they have ulterior motives? Or both?
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
RRR:
I would use this map of CodeBlueTO petitioners (in the early days) as a guide to the state of public knowledge:
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrkn6xX3MU1r2yh5po1_500.png
You bet in some sick way WT turns out to be the winner in this mess - the media exposure beats pretty much anything they've had, and the activism of its' constiteuncy will serve as a pretty good defense mechanism.
I wonder if this will turn out to be a watershed event like Spadina Expressway in the history of the city...
AoD
I would use this map of CodeBlueTO petitioners (in the early days) as a guide to the state of public knowledge:
http://26.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lrkn6xX3MU1r2yh5po1_500.png
You bet in some sick way WT turns out to be the winner in this mess - the media exposure beats pretty much anything they've had, and the activism of its' constiteuncy will serve as a pretty good defense mechanism.
I wonder if this will turn out to be a watershed event like Spadina Expressway in the history of the city...
AoD
Tulse
Senior Member
I doubt that the folks at UT are a representative sample. I too have long been an avid follower of waterfront development -- I've gone to the public meetings, went down to see Sugar Beach several times while it was still under construction, ditto for Sherbourne Common (which I also followed daily on its webcam), read all the documents on the WT website, etc. etc. etc. (Heck, I was following the redevelopment of the Lower Don when the previous Ataratiri development was proposed, which is quite a while back.)
I do think that, to this point, it is easy for someone who is not intentionally seeking out information on the waterfront, as there hasn't really been a lot of big, splashy projects completed. There is a ton of conceptual work, and a fair bit of "shovels-in-the-ground" work, but there aren't a lot of big obvious buildings yet, and even the major servicing work has been confined to smaller areas. So far people may have heard a lot of talk, but not actually seen a lot of clear results. That's just the nature of the process, but for someone not passionate about development (and/or who doesn't understand the processes involved), it may look like nothing is happening.
I do think that, to this point, it is easy for someone who is not intentionally seeking out information on the waterfront, as there hasn't really been a lot of big, splashy projects completed. There is a ton of conceptual work, and a fair bit of "shovels-in-the-ground" work, but there aren't a lot of big obvious buildings yet, and even the major servicing work has been confined to smaller areas. So far people may have heard a lot of talk, but not actually seen a lot of clear results. That's just the nature of the process, but for someone not passionate about development (and/or who doesn't understand the processes involved), it may look like nothing is happening.
GraphicMatt
Looking forward to a FRESH START for Toronto
Awareness is nice and all, but, really, it's a bit like becoming more aware of your appreciation for living after someone tries to shoot you.
The reality is that Port Lands and Lower Don Lands development is still a ways off. There's a ton of technical work that needs to happen. They're not going to be able to sustain public interest through that process. This spike of awareness will be short-lived and I'm not sure what, if anything, it added to the process.
The reality is that Port Lands and Lower Don Lands development is still a ways off. There's a ton of technical work that needs to happen. They're not going to be able to sustain public interest through that process. This spike of awareness will be short-lived and I'm not sure what, if anything, it added to the process.
Tulse
Senior Member
That pretty much corresponds to the wards that didn't vote for Ford, which also are the boundaries of the pre-amalgamation City of Toronto.
The divide is, essentially, cultural.
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Indeed, UT is not a representative sample. Been to a more than few of those public meetings and open houses as well - and started a good chunk of the WT threads on here, so clearly I am biased. 
Considering the history of waterfront development in Toronto, it is no small miracle that something happened at all. Just as an example - the tortuously aborted Ataratiri scheme.
AoD
Considering the history of waterfront development in Toronto, it is no small miracle that something happened at all. Just as an example - the tortuously aborted Ataratiri scheme.
AoD
AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
GraphicMatt:
You're right - but considering a good chunk of the WT work is coming onstream the next few years (WDL/EBF/QQ), the awareness by the general public is only going to increase. That combined with a fairly energized core support probably means that the general arrangement is safe politically speaking.
Personally, at this stage I am more concerned about economic factors throwing monkey wrenches into the scheme; development is tied to economic cycles and the funding model (i.e. land sales for development work) might create upward pressures for a level of density certain subgroups of supporters might find too difficult to swallow. That's what sunk Harbourfront in the 80s.
AoD
You're right - but considering a good chunk of the WT work is coming onstream the next few years (WDL/EBF/QQ), the awareness by the general public is only going to increase. That combined with a fairly energized core support probably means that the general arrangement is safe politically speaking.
Personally, at this stage I am more concerned about economic factors throwing monkey wrenches into the scheme; development is tied to economic cycles and the funding model (i.e. land sales for development work) might create upward pressures for a level of density certain subgroups of supporters might find too difficult to swallow. That's what sunk Harbourfront in the 80s.
AoD
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AlvinofDiaspar
Moderator
Tulse:
As much as the plans have regional implications, this is ultimately a core-city issue. What surprised me was how effective the opposition turned out to be. I suppose it's a matter of timing, particuarly with the core services review triggering a wave of discontent among the mushy middle.
AoD
As much as the plans have regional implications, this is ultimately a core-city issue. What surprised me was how effective the opposition turned out to be. I suppose it's a matter of timing, particuarly with the core services review triggering a wave of discontent among the mushy middle.
AoD
Riverdale Rink Rat
Senior Member
Agreed -- I was amazed/gratified to see that the King of Etobicoke North wasn't able to f**k up my neighbourhood to hold the line on our (lower than everyone else's) property taxes. More power to the newly organized opposition!
Tulse
Senior Member
Presumably this is no more a merely local concern than major development in other parts of the region. Indeed, I'd argue that it has wider implications than most development, as a well-developed waterfront helps gives the city an identity and makes it easier to attract new businesses.
I don't live anywhere near Mississauga, yet I was very excited about Absolute World, because it was an iconic project that would reflect well on the entire city. The waterfront is an opportunity for a similarly iconic set of projects.
current
Active Member
New York City is redeveloping Governors Island a former military base just offshore from Manhatton. Leslie Koch the president of The Trust for Governors Island came to the University of Toronto event "Big City, Big Ideas: The Blue Apple - Governors Island and the Transformation of the New York Harbourfront" on November 3 to talk about how New York City has been inspired by the Toronto Islands, Artscape and the Harbourfront art studios. She loved the transparent artist studios and she said there is nothing like it anywhere in the USA. Here is a link to the video of her presentation: http://mediacast.ic.utoronto.ca/201...&archived=visible&bandwidth=high&audioonly=no
junctionist
Senior Member
Wow, too bad I didn't hear about it early because it sounds like a fascinating lecture. I'll have to watch the videos, and I look forward to the December lecture on planning regional urban areas, a very relevant topic for Toronto. To hear Toronto's interesting and innovative projects get some attention internationally is excellent and important as Toronto needs to cement itself as a place that develops innovative urban ideas, rather than merely importing them from somewhere else.