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How should Toronto connect the East and West arms of the planned waterfront transit with downtown?

  • Expand the existing Union loop

    Votes: 205 71.2%

  • Build a Western terminus

    Votes: 13 4.5%

  • Route service along Queen's Quay with pedestrian/cycle/bus connection to Union

    Votes: 31 10.8%

  • Connect using existing Queen's Quay/Union Loop and via King Street

    Votes: 22 7.6%

  • Other

    Votes: 17 5.9%
  • Total voters
    288
DSC said:
Actually, no. As noted above and in the WT CEO Report, the three options they are looking at are ONLY through streetcar service on Queen's Quay with service to and from Union by a moving walkway, a 'horizontal elevator' or simply by walking inside the current streetcar tunnel or an LRT to a much expanded loop at Union - as already recommended in the earlier EA. As Drum has said the plans need to be questioned, as does their lack of any comparative costs etc. Frankly, it has all been rather a waste of time!
Click to expand...

Indeed - We spent two years just to get back to what we already knew? They really should have struck a Royal Commission for it if that was the intent.

Just like in computers, reset is what you do when you need a desperate Hail Mary.

AoD
 
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DSC said:
Actually, no. As noted above and in the WT CEO Report, the three options they are looking at are ONLY through streetcar service on Queen's Quay with service to and from Union by a moving walkway, a 'horizontal elevator' or simply by walking inside the current streetcar tunnel or an LRT to a much expanded loop at Union - as already recommended in the earlier EA. As Drum has said the plans need to be questioned, as does their lack of any comparative costs etc. Frankly, it has all been rather a waste of time!
Click to expand...
Hang on. Is the LRT to a much expanded loop just shuttling between there and Queens Quay? Or are they really planning on running all 5 lines into Union.
 
Leo_Chan said:
Grade separated streetcar tracks to turn from QQ towards Union, or a T switch?
Click to expand...

You need to wait until the WT and City folk publish their Study (apparently on Monday) and attend one of the public meetings for the gory details but the original EA goes into some detail on how the streetcar would work. See: http://www.waterfrontoronto.ca/nbe/...ns+quay+east/transit+environmental+assessment

The past few years have been spent whining about lack of $$ to fix the Union loop and the Waterfront Transit Reset work was supposed to come up with alternatives and move this ahead. As far as I can see, they have come up with ideas already in the EA (and rejected), have got NO new costs (or actually ANY costs) and the last few months have been a total waste of time. Waterfront Toronto USED to have the mantra "Transit First": so that people moving into a new area like West Don Lands and QQE would have good transit from Day 1. Not their finest hour I fear. I agree with @insertnamehere "They just need to bite the bullet and eat the costs of expanding the loop."
 
DSC said:
Actually, no. As noted above and in the WT CEO Report, the three options they are looking at are ONLY through streetcar service on Queen's Quay with service to and from Union by a moving walkway, a 'horizontal elevator' or simply by walking inside the current streetcar tunnel or an LRT to a much expanded loop at Union - as already recommended in the earlier EA. As Drum has said the plans need to be questioned, as does their lack of any comparative costs etc. Frankly, it has all been rather a waste of time!
Click to expand...
I went to public meetings last year for this and they were definitely looking at alternatives, most, going into Union Station. So these new alternatives are a bit surprising if that's the case. I don't think anyone would support losing a direct LRT connection and forcing a transfer to an alternative to reach Waterfront LRTs.
 
However, I will say the consultants SDG are quite reputable, and most reports I've seen from them are thorough and comprehensive. They usually do a good job, so I'll reserve judgement until I see the justification for alternatives.
 
innsertnamehere said:
They just need to bite the bullet and eat the costs of expanding the loop. Any other "solution" is a waste and would completely destroy the transit service. They would be better off just leaving it as it is today.
Click to expand...

So frustrating to see people think that a streetcar crawling through a tunnel at 5 km/hr (or whatever the speed limit is now) plus a $500m renovation is the only solution.

When I lived on QQW I always hated the summer. The crush load at Union that empties out after Harbourfront. And it will even get worse with the relocated GO bus terminal adding another bunch of people that only have to go a few hundred meters.

None of old studies contemplated the GO Bus terminal loads (nor the CIBC and RBC employees).

The Pearson-type moving walkway will get you from Union to Queens Quay in about 4-5 minutes (2 walkways...with an intermediate stop for the GO Bus). This will be quite similar to (or faster than) the time it takes the streetcar (assuming it replaces the stops at GO Bus, Ferry Docks and Harbourfront).

https://www.treehugger.com/urban-design/accel-moving-sidewalk-thyssenkrupp-dream-come-true.html
Of course assumes they shoud have redundancy built in (3 or 4 sidewalks) so that both ways are operational during repairs.

So why is this a problem? I hear the negativity but without a rational explanation. Only emotional (and hostile).
 
DSC said:
You need to wait until the WT and City folk publish their Study (apparently on Monday) and attend one of the public meetings for the gory details but the original EA goes into some detail on how the streetcar would work. See: http://www.waterfrontoronto.ca/nbe/...ns+quay+east/transit+environmental+assessment

The past few years have been spent whining about lack of $$ to fix the Union loop and the Waterfront Transit Reset work was supposed to come up with alternatives and move this ahead. As far as I can see, they have come up with ideas already in the EA (and rejected), have got NO new costs (or actually ANY costs) and the last few months have been a total waste of time. Waterfront Toronto USED to have the mantra "Transit First": so that people moving into a new area like West Don Lands and QQE would have good transit from Day 1. Not their finest hour I fear. I agree with @insertnamehere "They just need to bite the bullet and eat the costs of expanding the loop."
Click to expand...

I don't think extending the loop east was in the EA. Seems a fairly fresh concept, and one reason I laud the Reset. And if I had to argue which was more of an 'expansion', the old plan or extending the loop east, I'd say the latter. The amount of breathing room offered is way bigger...it's the real expansion. I guess we'll find out if it survived Phase II (I think it has).

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muller877 said:
1. None of old studies contemplated the GO Bus terminal loads (nor the CIBC and RBC employees).

2. The Pearson-type moving walkway will get you from Union to Queens Quay in about 4-5 minutes (2 walkways...with an intermediate stop for the GO Bus). This will be quite similar to (or faster than) the time it takes the streetcar (assuming it replaces the stops at GO Bus, Ferry Docks and Harbourfront).

https://www.treehugger.com/urban-design/accel-moving-sidewalk-thyssenkrupp-dream-come-true.html
Of course assumes they shoud have redundancy built in (3 or 4 sidewalks) so that both ways are operational during repairs.

3. So why is this a problem? I hear the negativity but without a rational explanation. Only emotional (and hostile).
Click to expand...
1. True and the addition of the proposed platform at the CIBC Centre DOES change and improve things.
2. If you are expecting 2 or 3 sidewalks (moving or stationary) you may be in for an unpleasant surprise!
3. Negativity, yes but until the full 'plan' (or actually listing of 'options') is revealed publicly it's hard to have a discussion (rational or otherwise).
 
44 North said:
I don't think extending the loop east was in the EA. Seems a fairly fresh concept, and one reason I laud the Reset. And if I had to argue which was more of an 'expansion', the old plan or extending the loop east, I'd say the latter. The amount of breathing room offered is way bigger...it's the real expansion. I guess we'll find out if it survived Phase II (I think it has).

View attachment 121201
View attachment 121202
Click to expand...

This requires digging a tunnel below grade along the path of the rail corridor. From what I understand, that would be a very expensive endeavour (I hope you can prove me wrong).
 
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