[TOareaFan]

http://www.healthzone.ca/health/new...-toronto-plans-for-mass-swine-flu-vaccination


You’d think if adjuvants were safe, they wouldn’t be bothering to make a special vaccine for pregnant women.

I think that is a case of perception becoming a dangerous reality. Sorta goes like this:

- a fear (legit or not, I don't know) that adjuvants are dangerous to pregnant women

- pregnant women choose not to get he needle because of the adjuvants

- a key member group of the higher at risk community, then, is not being vaccinated.

So the choices are, spend the entire flu season trying to convince pregnant women that any risk that the adjuvents pose is lower than the risk of H1N1 itself of just adapt the program, produce some adjuvent free doses and hopefully vaccinate a higher percentage of the pregnant women.

Rather than take it as an indication that the rest of us are getting bad needles, take it as an adaptive health care system trying to adress the concerns of its population.

 

[TOareaFan]

well? how come over a week ago the feds said they had secured enough vaccine to vaccinate everyone in canada and then some but health officials in toronto and other regions across canada say that it's in short supply?

My understanding is that there is a difference between "secured" and "have on hand"....we have secured an adequate supply but it will be delivered over a period of time at something like 2 or 3 million doses a week. If everyone in the country shows up in the first week with their sleeves rolled up.....then we will see shortages.

and why are there only two clinics open as of now? why isn't the vaccine being administered in schools like other vaccines have been given historically?

Schools are a tough place to administer something that has to be done over a fairly limited time......how many schools are there? how could we distribute, efficiently to so many locations and have adequate staffing at all of those locations.

As inconvenient as this is, it makes sense to me that this is a case where people have to go to the needle rather than it coming to them.

The small number of clinics this week is, I think, due to this week supposed to be for just people in the at risk categories.......our panic levels though, have exposed this as too few.

did the feds tell a fib about vaccine stocks? did they choose poor shipping methods? what gives?

Part of the new delays (there are news reports that less will be available next week, for example) is that we have now insisted that we get some adjuvent free doses to calm the fears of pregnant women. So the right (probably) decision has been made to get this key group a dose that they will take....but it means a slow down/bottleneck in the supply for the rest of us.

I think government is out there trying to address an issue and calm the fears of the general public, but it is a situation that is new to them and they are trying to strike the right balance. For every person that says "we don't have enough and it is not getting out there fast enough" there is someone saying "hey we are rushing this out there and we have no idea if it is safe"....

...I don't think anyone is lying/fibbing here....just people doing the best they can in a very trying situation.

 

[grey]

Rather than take it as an indication that the rest of us are getting bad needles, take it as an adaptive health care system trying to adress the concerns of its population.

In fact, they are enacting emergency measures to forego due research into adjuvants and authorize their use in order to stretch out the supply of vaccine.

More on these additives: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=a_xObcaSxF2o



Edit:

For every person that says "we don't have enough and it is not getting out there fast enough" there is someone saying "hey we are rushing this out there and we have no idea if it is safe"....

I appear to fit right into this category.

I'm not trying to criticize you or anyone else for being complacent in the face of a potentially dangerous situation, just throwing some information out there. Adjuvants are very probably not safe, but make your own decision, of course.


\/\/\/ getting a FOX news/neo-con vibe here, actually...

 

[TrickyRicky]

What I think is interesting is the amount of scepticism people have and how this effects something like a mass immunisation. We have spent decades creating an independent thinking population that is first and foremost sceptical and questioning of authority. This is a wonderful thing for the most part. That said there are instances where not trusting experts poses risks to society. The legions of bizarre theories people have about things like H1N1 or anti-biotics or climate change and environmental degredation come to mind.

 

[grey]

So, I guess the question, back in line with the thread topic, is why are we still short of vaccine even after expanding the available supply by using dangerous adjuvants?

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

My understanding is that there is a difference between "secured" and "have on hand"....we have secured an adequate supply but it will be delivered over a period of time at something like 2 or 3 million doses a week. If everyone in the country shows up in the first week with their sleeves rolled up.....then we will see shortages.

ah, so it's deceptive language thing. why don't they just say they paid & reserved supply for canada? secured sounds like they actually took physical possession.

Schools are a tough place to administer something that has to be done over a fairly limited time......how many schools are there? how could we distribute, efficiently to so many locations and have adequate staffing at all of those locations.

schools are an excellent place to vaccinate IMO. you have all these centres with a large population of people. don't schools have a nurse to administer a dose? schools can also be clinics for the general public to be vaccinated. there is alot of waiting area (people can line up in hallways), you've got a nice big gym to use and they are easy to find and distributed well geographically.

 

[Roy G Biv]

So, I guess the question, back in line with the thread topic, is why are we still short of vaccine even after expanding the available supply by using dangerous adjuvants?

They are scared of shipping it via dangerous trucks.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

So, I guess the question, back in line with the thread topic, is why are we still short of vaccine even after expanding the available supply by using dangerous adjuvants?

why are adjuvants dangerous? from what i understand, adjuvants were discovered when scientists realized that vaccine doses manufactured in very clean conditions were less effective than vaccines that were slightly contaminated (dirty).

 

[dt_toronto_geek]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mScGC7nFDxM

Not after seeing this video. I'd rather get the flu.

These incidences are very, very rare and GBS can be aquired without getting a flu shot. Most recover fully in a few weeks to a few months, some don't and a very small percentage will die.

An aspirin can kill too. So can peanuts for some people, or a bee sting.

I take my "chances", I get the influenza shot every year and today is the day I get it from my GP (he isn't doing H1N1 shots).

I'm a little concerned and partly confused by the report on The National last night about a possible shortage of supply in the next two or three weeks. I'm very concerned that health care workers and people with underlying health conditions are lining up to get the H1N1 shot for 2 to 5 hours across the country and in some cases finding clinics closed down mid day due to large turnouts so they leave without getting the shot. There's been very poor planning in Canada with regards to the limited number of clinics offering the H1N1 shots.

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

if every single person in canada gets vaccinated, around 33 will contract GBS. but won't those 33 contract GBS if they get the H1N1 disease anyway?

 

[grey]

why are adjuvants dangerous? from what i understand, adjuvants were discovered when scientists realized that vaccine doses manufactured in very clean conditions were less effective than vaccines that were slightly contaminated (dirty).

Check the links I posted. They explain this.

 

[Swarley]

Check the links I posted. They explain this.

I somehow have trouble trusting a site like newfluwiki2.com. I'll trust my own common sense, which says that since 100mL of olive oil has at least 10 times the amount of squalene in the adjuvant, I should be OK.
Also, according to the WHO, there was never squalene in the Gulf War vaccines. http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/questions_and_answers/en/

 

[Swarley]

Also see the abstract for a published study of squalene and olive oil:
As a working hypothesis, it is proposed that the high squalene content of olive oil, as compared to other human foods, is a major factor in the cancer-risk reducing effect of olive oil. Experiments in animal models suggest a tumor-inhibiting role for squalene

 

[Prometheus The Supremo]

suppose that the adjuvant can cause arthritis, etc. because of a immune reaction, having an immune reaction to food poisoning and any serious illness like H1N1 could also cause a strong immune reaction that can cause the same problems.


so if they're stretching the vaccine out with adjuvants, i'm guess they didn't really "secure" enough doses for every canadian and then some. if they had lots of supply, they wouldn't have to use adjuvants.

 

[grey]

I somehow have trouble trusting a site like newfluwiki2.com.

Feel free to ignore the AP and Bloomberg links.

I'll trust my own common sense, which says that since 100mL of olive oil has at least 10 times the amount of squalene in the adjuvant, I should be OK.

You're missing a lot of information, Dr. Swarley. The difference between “good” and “bad” squalene is the route by which it enters your body. Injection is an abnormal route of entry which incites your immune system to attack all the squalene in your body, not just the vaccine adjuvant.

Your immune system will attempt to destroy the molecule wherever it finds it, including in places where it occurs naturally, and where it is vital to the health of your nervous system. This has happened in tests with lab rats and guinea pigs, and it's why the US and Canadian health authorities haven't approved squalene.

Also, according to the WHO, there was never squalene in the Gulf War vaccines. http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/adjuvants/squalene/questions_and_answers/en/

That's a subject of heated debate. The FDA discovered the presence of squalene in certain lots of Anthrax vaccine that was given to deployed Persian Gulf personnel during the war. A clear link was established between that vaccine and all the Gulf War Syndrome sufferers who received it.